Logic Pro X version 10.5 is out! With many enhancements for VoiceOver users

App DeveloperClub AppleVis Member

Hi everyone,

David Earl here, and I am the Product Manager for Logic Pro X for Apple.

We are releasing version 10.5 of the software today, and it is the biggest change in a very long time.

We are doing our best to be sure that we are addressing accessibility in Logic, and with all of the new features I just wanted to let you know that we have addressed these issues:

• VoiceOver now properly announces the first column in the Loop Browser.

• VoiceOver now announces the state of the Direct Monitoring button in the Mixer.

• VoiceOver no longer announces disclosure triangles in Inspectors as button.

• VoiceOver now positions plug-ins in the correct slots when inserting more than three plug-ins consecutively.

• The Part box in the Score is now accessible with VoiceOver.

• VoiceOver now announces the note position and pitch in linear view in the Score.

• The pop-up menu for creating a Software instrument no longer requires a mouse click interaction with VoiceOver.

• Filter by Type in the Loop Browser now supports VoiceOver.

• Fixes an issue where channel strips sometimes remain unexpectedly selected when navigating the Mixer using VoiceOver.

• VoiceOver now speaks the track name when using the up and down arrows to navigate the track list.

We are also implementing a lot of accessibility features in the new Live Loops area of Logic and there will be many more enhancements coming.

I hope that you enjoy the New Logic, and please also feel free to reach out to me and the team about accessibility related issues.

Take good care!

David

email: dgearl@apple.com

Forum: 

Hello David

Hello David

It's great that you operate in the area of ​​accessibility.

How does the change of parameters look like in the current version? e.g. panorama.
In previous versions, the change was completely random, I could move the panorama 5% to the left, and then return only 4%. Due to this positioning in the center position was not possible.

I will need to check, but I

App DeveloperClub AppleVis Member

I will need to check, but I believe that issue was fixed in 10.4.8.

I am in press briefings today and tomorrow, but will be listing these concerns and addressing them when I come back online. Keep 'em coming! :)

This is fantastic news

Hi David!
Thank you so much for engaging with the community, and the excellent work you and your team do on accessibility in Logic! I'm looking very much forward to playing with the new version.

As a music student and practicing musician, it means the world to me that you prioritize accessibility

Best
Malthe

Note to David: This is fabulous!

Club AppleVis Member

We finally have a direct go to who directly works for Apple who gets it about accessibility! I've never been more excited! I've long time been an avid, (OK, pun intended,) ProTools user, but, if we can get things working well with Logic, I'd be willing to give it another go. Here's the problem I really really have.

I call the 1-877-204-3930 accessibility line and tell them I need help with Logic. Oh, we know Voiceover, but we don't know Logic at all. Let us transfer you to Pro apps support. Yeah yeah yeah... OK, fine, whatever. They transfer me. Oh, well, Darn it! We know Logic, but we have no clue about Voiceover, talk to Accessibility. See the predicament I'm in here?

Even when I get them to conference in each other, then screen sare to help me, it's a disaster 99 percent the time, as neither one has any knowledge about the other, so we basically go around in circles. The way you interact, (this time, no pun intended,) with Logic is so nonstandard in a lot of ways, as me being a blind professional who does music production every single day of my life practically darn near, trust me. This makes things super difficult. The way in Logic a sighted person does certain things, we can't do. So, we have to find alternative methods. And the thing is, these methods aren't usually obvious. Not even to the Accessibility team.

So, yeah. when I need help, howe do I directly get it from Apple? I know there are other blind Logic users, but sometimes it's just easier for me to talk to Apple directly.

What I mainly don't like about Logic is these work around methods to achieve what a sighted person would do completely differently. Why can't we have ways of achieving things the same way a sighted person would. OK, maybe with the keyboard, not the mouse, but still, aside from that the same way. Off hand, I can't think of an example, as there are just too many situations where this would be the case.

I get that this version addresses a lot of accessibility issues, and that's fantastic, please do not misunderstand what I'm saying. If Apple intends to keep traveling down this path of finally listening to improving accessibility, then I'm all aboard the journey, but when we users especially professionals, not just consumers give feedback, then you all need to listen, and take the things we say into consideration. It sounds like you all are finally doing that.

At the very least, I'm extremely heartened that finally I know the head accessibility manager of Logic accessibility operations e-mail, and the fact you've given the invitation for us directly to contact you for any questions we may have... that's commendable, and I'm greatful to you for such an offer.

So, let's see where things go.

I'm admittedly a little bit sceptical, I'll admit, but I'm willing to give you all a chance.

Downloading the update now, but have a few questions.

Hello.
This is amazing, and I can't wait to get it downloaded. However, I have a few questions in regards to the event list and tempo changes.
VoiceOver focus can be very jumpy from within the event list, as when I have to double-click to activate the text field for entering in a note manually, VO sometimes jumps to the main part of the window.
Sort of in the same regards, is there a way to increment the tempo by 1 using the sliders (or the sake with the sliders in the event list?) It would make life a lot easier, honestly.

A few more Notes

Hello again,
I've been able to download the update. To my (albeit limited) knowledge, here are some issues that I have run into that haven't been fixed yet:
Like I said in my previous post, changing the metronome by one doesn't appear to work, as the s£ider only increments by ten, and VO only stays in the edis box that appears when you mouse click the slider for a little over 3 seconds before booting itself out of there.
The tempo track also is a bit confusing. I'm not sure if this is accessibility-related but I can't seem to figure out how to edit the tempo on certain measures from within thetempo track editor.
3. I'd love to also be able to use the arrangement track for arranging Drummer regions ouz it appears that the Drummer will make a region that would fit into a chorus or verse), but i can't seem to be able to do anything in it.
The event list issues are basically the same as the tempo issues, as it appears to be a app-wide (regarding sliders) or system-wide issue.
Hope that these made sense!

Plugins with the mixer

Hello there. I've seen this as a problem ever sense 10.4.8. I work with a lot of tracks in my daily productions and while, I can use the inspector to see what plugins I've inserted on a particular track, my work flow has always been the mixer, as I can see everything in one place. With that being said, is there not a way where Voiceover can announce what plugins I have on a particular channel strip when viewing by the mixer? If I want to see what plugins I have on a track, I would have to stop interacting with the channel strip of the mixer, go to the inspector, and finally, go to see what plugins I have. Let me know if I'm missing something here. Thanks.

Panning in Logic

App DeveloperClub AppleVis Member

Panning and other parameter based issues were supposed to have been fixed. Please let me know if you are still having issues in 10.4.8 or above.

Just to let you know, I am not officially part of the accessibility team, I am the Product Manager for Logic Pro X. I just happen to be very concerned about accessibility and want to be sure that anyone that wants to use it is not hampered by our accessibility issues. I have been hammering on accessibility issues with my cohort Dean Hudson to try and be sure that Logic is a great experience for blind and low vision users. :)

Thanks

App DeveloperClub AppleVis Member

Hey thanks. We are trying hard to be sure that Logic is going to be a great experience for low vision and blind users. Every update will see improvements.

Guys,

Guys,
How use loops library with VoiceOver and add them on the track?

Thanks for the feedback

App DeveloperClub AppleVis Member

Hey, just to let you know, I am actually the Product Manager for Logic Pro X itself, and I just happen to make accessibility a priority. :)

We are working internally to be sure that accessibility is being addressed in every release of Logic. I work very closely with the accessibility team to try to be sure that we are working towards making Logic as accessible as possible. I have several friends that are blind and taught me the wonders of using music making software with the monitor turned off. It used to be Cakewalk/Sonor with Jaws back in the day, and I always wondered if Logic could get there. I think Dave Pinto did an amazing job, and I've been inspired to do what I can to work with accessibility teams at Apple to make sure our app has a good trajectory of implementation alongside my colleague Dean Hudson, who is a blind user himself. I look forward to improving Logic with every update, and hope that some of our new features will be fun for blind and low-sight users.

Tim Cook has made it clear many times that accessibility is important to Apple. I think all of the teams at Apple are trying to live up to that. :)

Sliders

App DeveloperClub AppleVis Member

Sliders were supposed to be fixed in Logic 10.4.8, with the ability to change between 10s and 1s with a modifier.

I will look into this.

As for the arrange markers, Drummer will automatically change according to the name of the Arrange marker. Are you saying that you are not able to change the arrangement marker type? (Intro, Chorus, Verse, Outro)

The tempo track is not as useful for blind and low-sighted users as the tempo list, which is much easier to edit. There is the issue of tempo curves, but we do have a window for tempo operations that should generate curves that are even a bit more granular than what is in the tempo track, which a bit of a different instrument when it comes to curves.

Let me know

Mixer implementation

App DeveloperClub AppleVis Member

This is available in the mixer. If you dig into the channel, (tab to mixer group, then control-option-shift down arrow. use control-option-right arrow to locate the mixer layout area. Dig into that, and get to the channel strip. it should start with the text element at the bottom of the channel strip. Use control-option left to get to the plugins and listen to what they are. You can then interact with them as a button to open them if you like.

Re: Sliders

Will deffinitely do that.
As for the arrangement track, there appear to be a row of unlabeled buttons and an?add arrangement marker button." It does not appear that I can change what type of marker it is.

Great News

Logic is great in many areas and I’ve produced and recorded several professional products with great success; i’m always skeptical about upgrading to a new version, especially since 10.44, thank you so much for coming to this forum and introducing the new upgrade; i’ve been following the new features and can’t wait to jump in to the live loops and new sampler! Many of us veterans have found workarounds for some of the known issues, I will take a drive through and see about the sliders and other areas… Thanks again David

New Quick Sampler

Hi David. Thank you for taking the time to post the announcement about Logic Pro 10.5 here at AppleVis. Not only was I thrilled to see a product manager from Apple post, but it is exciting to read how committed you are to improving the accessibility of Logic Pro for blind and visually impaired users. I'm intrigued about the new quick sampler. Maybe I'm missing something obvious, but I'm not finding a way to load my own samples into it. Is this possible yet with VoiceOver? Thanks.

Thank you

Thank you so much for reaching out. We really appreciate that work is being done in regards to accessibility in Logic. I personally don't use it as much as I'd like to, but hopefully this changes soon. Very exciting update.

Super!

This is great to read. I love the update so far.
Are there any plans to make the new sampler accessible again? Currently it's nearly impossible to do such things like editing zones, looping, layering ... with it. A more accessible alchemy would be a dream to .. :)

Sampler Accessibility

App DeveloperClub AppleVis Member

We will absolutely make Sampler accessible again. I am sorry that it is hard to navigate right now. I will bring this feedback to the accessibility team and make sure that it gets the proper hooks ASAP.

There may be a way to change the modes to group and zone to give areas and sliders that allow for easy non-visual editing. Let me see if those hooks are in there yet.

Few Suggestions

App Developer

Hi David,

Thanks so much for your work to make Logic accessible.
I compiled a list of accessibility issues with some power logic users who uses VoiceOver.
Rather than pasting a big list here, here's the link.
https://chigkim.github.io/logic-accessibility/
Hope these help.
Thanks again,

Chi

Few Suggestions

App DeveloperClub AppleVis Member

Thanks a lot for this! I will definitely integrate these into my accessibility documents.

Take care,

David

Region bug

There is something that really bothers me. When you try to overlap two regions on a track, it causes the audio to cut.out. I don't know if it's a bug, but it needs to change

Quick sampler doesn't allow

Quick sampler doesn't allow us to load samples because, according to the manual, you need to drag and drop into the waveform. The waveform is not visible to voiceover, I also tried hitting command v to paste it but no dice. :(

Thanks David.

App Developer

Thanks David.
Some of them are minor issues that we could tolerate, and some of them are critical issues without no workaround.
I'm looking into a way for people to rate each item, so they are rated.
I'll keep adding to the list as people discover more.

Quick Sampler

Yeah, I also tried to paste an audio file but it just pasted into an audio track, not the sampler.

For now, I think easiest way

App Developer

For now, I think easiest way to make audio file playable is import into an audio track, select the region, and press control+e to convert to sample track.
Quick sampler isn't option, but at least you can load into sampler, drum machine designer, or Alchemy.

To Adjust By Smaller amount

App Developer

If you use vo+shift+right/left, you can adjust tempo by 1. If you need to change the decimal point, then you have to simulate mouse click and type.

Bringing Loop To Project

App Developer

Sselect a loop from loop browser, and command+c to copy and command+v to paste. It'll create a new track with the loop you selected.
If you want to put it on a live loop cell, select a loop from loop browser, command+c to copy, go to a cell you want to paste into, vo+shift+m to bring up contextual menu, and choose paste.
Make sure you paste audio loop into audio track, and so on.

That makes sense.

That makes sense.
I do consistently have problems though with typing things into sliders. It appears that VO focueas doesn't stay in the field for very long.
After learning theaone thing I'd suggest is to rework some of the VoiceOver hints (telling us what key-commands do what instead of the current setup).

Will do

App DeveloperClub AppleVis Member

I will ask the team to try and rework the slider functionality a bit more.

Here are few more things you

App Developer

Here are few more things you could try.
Make sure to set Mouse cursor to follow VoiceOver cursor in VoiceOver utility > navigation.
Before issuing mouse click, verify where the mouse is by pressing vo+f5.
Also you want to make sure the field you want to click is visible on the screen.
VoiceOver can navigate to UI elements that are off screen, and if you try to simulate mouse click on them, it won't work because it's not shown on the screen.
Lastly, make sure to hide panels that you don't use at the time.
Hope these help.

Accessibility and efficiency should go hand in hand

Hey David!
First of all, thank you, thank you, thank you very much for reaching out to the community. It won't be easy to make everyone happy, but I sincerely applaud you for being courageous and reaching out. This really means a lot to us!
Second, as you move forward with fixes and new implementation to make Logic more accessible, please also think about efficiency. A lot of users have learned to get around various accessibility limitations of Logic, but many tasks still take too long to perform compared to our sighted counterparts. I realize it's an ambitious goal, but I hope you wtake it on as a challenge!

Thanks again and I'm sure we will do whatever is necessary to make your job easier.

Thanks again!
Victor

phone support for logic could improve

Club AppleVis Member

when I last called in for logic, the support was all right, tge problem is when the accessibility folks get with the pro app folks and neither one knows about the other. Can this small issue be improved upon? the wireless departtment does nto have this issue. of you, Dave Earl, are not the right person to ask about this issue, can you point me to the right place for this feedback? I used to use Logic back in 10.4 but can't any more, do to storage limatations on my 256GB SSD with 60GB used for Bootcamp. are the SSDS in the early 2015 MacBookPros upgradible so I can start using Logic again? also, what is the new content for Logic Pro x 10.5?
Daniel

Have you tried relocating the

App Developer

Have you tried relocating the sound library contents to an external ssd drive?
If you go to Logic Menu > Sound Library > Relocate Sound Library, you can move them to an external ssd.
That would free up lots of space in your internal hard drive.
Then if you want to use Logic, you have to make sure your external drive is plugged in.

Thanks Victor!

App DeveloperClub AppleVis Member

Hey it's great to hear from you, and encouraging. I am pulled in a lot of different directions these days, but accessibility is a human right, and I want to be sure you all know I am doing my best to encourage enhancements and improvements that come from the community. I will definitely see about creating a more frictionless, efficient workflow for you.

Library and SSD storage

App DeveloperClub AppleVis Member

Hey there, I highly recommend moving the Library to an external drive. We have the ability to do that now, and it really lets the internal drive breath easier. The files are numerous, but small, so even with a mechanical external HD they will load up in the session very quickly because they are so optimized. Getting that library on an external is outlined in this article: https://support.apple.com/en-us/HT208892

It is usually best to try AppleCare first, but I do monitor this area and will do my best to respond if you are not getting the answers you are looking for.

Hey David, I know it might

Hey David, I know it might sound crazy, but please allow for the ability to overlap audio regions on one track without them cutting out. The reason why this is important is as a sound designer if I want to mix multiple sounds, say different gun shots over each other right now I have to creat new tracks for all of them. It would be way easier if I could just have them all as regions on one track, but I can't because if a region overlaps the audio cuts out. Please, this would make life way faster for me as a blind sound designer.

I believe this is by design,

App Developer

I believe this is by design, and many DAWS work like this way in fact. It doesn't have to do with accessibility.

Audio Channels

App DeveloperClub AppleVis Member

An audio track can only play a single stream of audio at a time. You can set the drag mode to crossfade or overlap, but you will only hear the topped audio region. That said, you can layer the audio onto different tracks and then use a folder to move all of the regions as a single region in the tracks area.

Not sure if it's in the pipe line

Hello there. I know the sampler is being worked on as being more accessible and what not, but is this in the pipeline as of yet? Being able to put a whole audio file on a track, for example, a vocal sample, being able to convert into a sample, and directly chop into smaller files directly into the sampler and map keys as we go, or transpose if needed? I think I see a lot of sited people do this if I'm not mistaken and would love the ability to have that work flow. Another thing that can be done as well is chopping each region and being able to transpose the regions themselves, and then convert the whole thing into separate sample zones, but in the sampler, being able to change what that region is mapped to keyboard wise. These are two work flows that I would love to have. I had to chop vocal samples for something that I was working on and transposing, but I had to bounce them all out as audio files because when conversion to a sampler instrument happened, everything went right back into their original key and pitch, I then had to import every region on a new track and convert into a sampler that way so that pitch and key would still be kept. I would love for ways to speed up my workflow when dealing with samples and EXS24, did it just fine interns of chopping up samples and mapping and all that. But with this new workflow that I've got going on, I'm not about that. Another thing is, yes, sited people can drag a file on to the track header and from what I know, if the sample plugin was added, it would ask what type you want, being as a drum sample, a single sample or what not, I do believe a dialog pops up, but for us, that doesn't happen I don't think. Besides the sampler being a big thing most of us can't use right now in terms of sampling, not including the quick sampler, because that thing, on its own, does wonders. I honestly thing that this is one of the big things of logic 10,5 of which, I'm not liking and would recommend hip-hop blind producers just to stay on 10.4.8 if you're dealing with chopping samples. I'm one myself, but my setup is different of which I use native instrument's samplers for my drums and I make all my loops from scratch, so hardly use the sampler at best, but there are going to be times, where I want to chop up samples and use with ease and native instruments sampler doesn't allow for each zone to be mapped to a different key and doing vocal chops and play that on a track to track bassist, or just chopping in general, na, rather not do that. If you need a recording of what my work flow is currently for chopping up a vocal sample and converting to a sampler instrument, because believe me, it's tiring to think about because I can't use the sampler accessibly to do stuff of what I'd like to do, I can't think of any other way to use this. And believe me, I've looked as well. I've been using logic for a long time and when I feel that something isn't right, usually is true. One more thing that I would like to add. Note repeater. I know what all the buttons do because I've been using it for a long time, but label them unlabeled buttons pretty please? It would help a lot. The note repeater often gets overlooked because we don't express a mentioning in the buttons because we all know what them unlabeled buttons do but as for someone who is new to logic, and yes, tutorials do exist, I would rather have someone look at that, not knowing what they are doing, rather than looking at unlabeled buttons and getting lost along the way.

Hey bro, you can see them if

Jonnie boyyyyy!!! first, to you... Hey bro, you can see them if you interact with the strip in the mixer. But I agree, like Reaper... To David; it would be nice if you navigate to a track, and Logic report the number of region's and when left and right arrowing VoiceOver report the Region name. And report the number of FX ... But being blunt and honest, as I always am knone to be for those that know me, Everything here is great, but if VoiceOver isn't working like it should be, then what's the point? Voiceover has this speech buffer issue where it like's to attach a long string of text together, and when up and down arrowing at a fast pace it's really laggy, and you have to tirn VoiceOVER off and back on to be able to use it again. So you have to wait for VO to stop chattering away before you know where you are or anything. The only way to fix the problem is to tirn it off, then back on. I really love the new update though! Great job! Currently, we cannot access some buttons in Sampler yet though. VoiceOver does not see them, and also there are a few places still that have no labels, and also in the sampler it self as well! And finally, Voiceover will not report the track that is currently focused untill you do the following... 1, navigate to a track, and 2, interact with the title field and then 3, stop interacting. Then Voiceover will then report track name's. Thank you again for a awesome app. and reaching out to us like you have. We all truly thank you.

I would so love to see David

I would so love to see David Pento, and Bill McCan on that team... They could help whoop logic in to shape like you have never seen before!!! *grin*

The pipeline

App DeveloperClub AppleVis Member

Hi there!

Lots of questions here, so let me try to break it down...

Q: I know the sampler is being worked on as being more accessible and what not, but is this in the pipeline as of yet?

A: Yes, there are a lot of tickets in the pipeline about Sampler accessibility. As of now, the synthesis controls are available via the controls view. We need to add Group, Zone, and Mapping editing to that list. This is for Quick Sampler as well. We do still have 'control + e', which will take a sample and instantly chop it by transient or will create an instrument from multiple regions. I would play around with that if I were you, it is very powerful and we have added some additional functionality to this. You can create a new DMD patch, Alchemy instrument, or sampler instantly with this key command. This will allow you to get into this workflow NOW, even before we have all of the additional controls built into the controls view of the plugins.

I assure you we will be adding additional functionality to the controls in these plugins in the near future.

Clarification

This isn't an accessibility bug (at least I think it's not), but when editing the start and end of regions using the left and right handles, it doesn't appear that the handles correspond exactly to the start and end points of said region. To my knowledge, when the handles are moved, they start off at the exact same measure number and show how long the region .. For example, I have an 8 bar region. When I move the left handle to the right, it moves from 8 bars to 7 bars, 2 beats, and so on. Is this by design? I'd personally prefer having the left handle when moved say where it is in the song itself rather than the length of the track, but that's just me. If a setting was added for that, that would be great.

moving a library to an external drive

Club AppleVis Member

I cannot move my sound libarary to an external drive. I've only git two USP ports. I could use a USB hub, but that is hard on my hardware. as Logic is processer and RAM intensive, I'm woreered that a hub would over time, brake my mac as when I had everything working in 2016, my fan alway was on to the max. my specks are 16gb RAM, intel CorI 7 processer, 3.1 GHZ, and my model is early 2015, which is old by the new mac standard. and as I removed logic completely, I'll have to redownload everything, which would take days, as I live in the country. I do not mind going to town for this downloading though.
regards,
Daniel