Why do you stick to/use Windows?

For me is easy. Never took a class on it and makes it easy to play with in my PC. Went from windows 95, XP, 98, windo 7, window 10 and more likely to 11.

I'll try to boil them down to a handful, though.
But, I want to put a note out here because of some of the complaints I've read about Windows. Comparing Mac OS to Windows on third party hardware is not a fair match up. Instead, when doing this comparison, we should be talking about Windows on first party hardware, Microsoft Surface computers, to the Apple devices. Third parties, HP, Dell, Lenovo, ETC are all going to put their own add ons and branding changes and to some degree or another that always introduces more ways for things to get weird.

I have been running Windows on a Surface computer of some flavor for the last 5 years and it works beautifully with out mysterious crashes or lag. The hardware is also lovely, my current laptop for example has a nice, sleek aluminum casing, not unlike a Mac book Pro.
The biggest reasons I use Windows as my primary machine come down to having a choice of screen reader, and JAWS and NVDA offer a better user experience than Voice Over on Mac. That, combined with the way Windows is set up means I can fly around the OS and without having to do all kinds of finger gymnastics or searching through all kinds of panels and scroll views and tab groupings to try to find the controls I'm after.

That, and basically all the games and productivity software, including development environments either only work on Windows, or definitely work a lot better there.

Don't even get me started with the Voice Over web experience, either.

So to summarize, my reasons are software compatibility, better screen readers, productivity and user experience.

I have an hp laptop for which despite paying the premium price for warranty they were unable to replace a decent battery which would last more than one hour, twice. I had 0 confidence with windows and long term battery management. I actually discovered apple silicon in 2023 when looking for laptops, I was completely out of the loop about that. I gave it a try. Sequoia is decent enough but if it weren't I'd have sold my mac for good now. Windows accessibility just works, and I am sorry but if you think that web browsing is complicated just because you are used to the mac ways of doing things you just haven't read any user guide properly. Despite the price which is near 0 if you are a student or working in tech, you have office for free. It's industry standard and accessible with most things and with an easier accessibility experience. I completely love the mac cursor though so if someone can tell me how to replicate on windows, I am sure such things exist. My first and last answer is that windows accessibility just works. If you know enough of your os you can literally customize everything and still get an xp like experience even on windows 11 in 2025. It's just a matter of doing things well. I have seen another blind friend do insane things with windows which makes his laptop the fastest machine I've seen, even more than a speakup on an average linux tty native installation for those you get what I mean by that. The os may be not open source but it is in the spirit because most of the population have used it and developers do crazy things and microsoft allow those things, for the most part, and even when they don't you still can find workaround. Between the registry and group policy editor alone you can do almost everything and anything. I'd always recommend windows to blind people and actively discourage the mac unless they have enough of a pseudo developer mindset to deal with voiceover bugs, which I feel that the community is tollerating too much and not letting know their feeling to apple in an appropriate way. I am not blaming them for apple inaction, but for their forgiveness and, oh apple cares about accessibility. On ios they still do for the most part. It's been a while that they have stopped and for people who are not locked down in the ecosystem because of their job as a developer with apple platforms and similar they have mostly already switched and happier with windows. You'll find bugs on mac that you won't see anywhere else in the global screen reader accessibility landscape, and longstanding ones that have not been resolved for years. I'm writing this from my mac, I still use it and in fact have been using it even further since the last 5-6 months, so I am definitely able to do most of the stuff I wanna do, but it doesn't mean that I like it or find it normal having to deal with all that daily.
Windows, again, if you know enough yourself, or have a circle of friends who do, will serve you with infinite many ways to accomplish the same thing, and accessibility can be easily solved by one alternative or the other. It's true though that the biggest problem with windows is that there are no applevis like resources for windows and there is this big fragmentation of knowledge and expertise with real world problems/questions as far as accessibility is concerned than other platforms. As a beginner, macos is certainly easier to learn, during the first days at least.
I'd also add that since I bought my mac my general accessibility standards have lowered a lot and this is completely apple fault.
Yes, you almost can't access bios/eufi without sighted or external help. But you will unlikely need to perform this 7/24. Yes, audio may be better on the mac, but the fact that mac still lacks a decent native volume mixer in 2025... Okay apple added the screen and sound recording capability to obs themselves but, yeah.
Accessibility is just overall better on windows. This is the only reason I need, as as an os macos is better in almost every way possible from a developer perspective because of freebsd.

To explain my reasons for using Windows over macOS, I will have to give a bit of personal history.
~~~
I was born with perfect eyesight. My father introduced me to pinball machines when I was a toddler. As an elementary school child, I became obsessed with Atari games, and then Nintendo games. As I got older I got into more advanced console gaming; everything in the lineup of the mid to late 90s of gaming consoles. Some years later, I received my first Windows PC running Windows 95.
A few years later I upgraded that same computer to Windows 98, and then again to Windows ME.
*full body shudder here*
Some years later I commissioned my first gaming rig, which ran Windows XP. Throughout all of this, I dove deep into the world of PC gaming. I was never a streamer or anything, to my own chagrin. I used that gaming rig for several years, until a severe thunder storm fried it in the early 2000s. Bought myself a pre-built desktop PC, also running Windows XP, until I lost my eyesight in 2009.
~~~
During my transition from sighted to sightless, I stayed with a family friend who happened to own an older model MacBook Pro. The ones with actual harddrives and optical drives. Through YouTube, I taught myself how to use OS X and VoiceOver. At the same time, I had official training in my state's Dept. for the Blind, and learned touch typing on a Windows 7 machine running JAWS. I was lucky in that after completing my training, I was given a brand new MacBook Pro for use in my upcoming college career.
~~~
I used that MacBook Pro for about a decade, and during that time had a BootCamp of Windows 10 and JAWS, also for school use. I ended up discovering NVDA by chance, but soon fell in love with that, too.
As an IT graduate, I found I needed Windows for a good portion of school work.
~~~
Last year, I joined a program designed for the visually impaired at a technical school, where I earned a cert in Network Engineering, and 2 certs in Cyber Security. My current VR counselor with my state's Dept. for the Blind purchased for me my current laptop; a lovely HP running Windows 11.
Bottom line, I fell in love with Windows 11. What can I say, I love (technology) freely ... don't judge me.
Even now I am a gamer, and while I do enjoy certain audio games and Interactive Fiction, I absolutely thrive on fighting games, which I could never play on macOS.
After more than a decade of not being able to game on my computer, I guess I am making up for lost time with PC gaming.
~~~
TLDR:
Experienced 30 years of Windows with a handful of years running macOS. Prefer the Windows experience when it comes to desktop computing, gaming, writing code, and programming. 😇

Hi,
I've used Windows with some help from 2004, and independently from 2009 onwards. Windows was the only thing I had at school and college in the late nineties early two thousands, so it's the only thing I've known. so I've just stuck with it. It does everything I need, I can use one of three or possibly four screen readers for things, so if something doesn't work with one screen reader, it might work with another. I can use Office and Google products for what I need no problems, and browsing the web really is fine for what I need. I use VLC if I need to listen to any media files, and I can read Kindle books here too, and there are a fair few ways I can read PDFs too. The only thing I really don't like about Windows is the fact that when you first get most Windows machines, you need to uninstall a load of bloatware, and sort out the soundcard issue, and then you're good to go. Oh and, I don't like Windows explorer either. I've been having real problems with it recently, so I've started using Explorer ++ sometimes, and it's a really fast and efficient way to browse files and folders. I know that Linovo has an apparently accessible tool for accessing the BIOS, and there are PowerShell scripts available for accessing the BIOS on certain laptop models. On my HP, the computer I use now, I accessed the BIOS via PowerShell to change the function keys to behave like function keys, and not those stupid media and mouse controls. That's the only time I've ever needed to access the BIOS in 20 years of having my own laptops. It would be cool if there were easier ways of accessing the BIOS in all laptop models. As for safe mode, apparently there is a talking safe mode program, or there used to be. I've never needed to access safe mode though. The only times I've seen it mentioned is for uninstalling anti-virus software.

Every time I pickup and try to learn VO on Mac, I get stuck. Navigating desktop items is also a finger gymnastics there if I remember correctly.
I wish I could use them productively, specially since I see so many great blind folkes doing great things using Macs. But given the current learning curve, high cost of those machines, and despite availability of a great resource that is Applevis, when it comes to deciding my next machine, it's just easy to pick a windows machine.
The way Windows on Arm is picking up, future looks very exciting for Windows laptops.
Man I wish if I could get my hands on a Windows Arm machine for few hours.

Agreed. ARM PCs look very enticing. The only thing holding me back on one is gaming. I need confirmation that the games I play on my current HP laptop can be played on the latest ARM Windows.

Otherwise it sounds amazing, at least on paper. 😅

Yep, the safe mode registry tweak still exists. It has been a stupid long time since I have had to go into safe mode, and thankfully not ever with my current laptop, but its good to know its accessible with JAWS or NVDA. 😊

I knew about bios accessibility with lenovo but I am still impressed each time I hear that they actually did that. For my model of hp I was lucky enough that left shift + function always toggles between function and media key, I know that it's not the case about all models unfortunately.
Windows screen readers (all of them) don't mess up with large portion of texts for example, I can open a 6 million characters .txt file with nvda on notepad (especially the new one) and it works just like a charm while 10-20 pages in the eponymous can make voiceover having panick attacks.

Is explorer++ like explorer patcher? I know that for whatever reason open shell is the new classic shell but more or less the same program, is it something like that?

Oh and fanfiction.net works 100% fine with windows screen readers only.

I started using Windows when I was working at Xerox as a research Scientist. I had been using MS-DOS before then and connecting my PC to a Unix workstation via a Telnet application on the PC to do most of my work.

When Xerox switched to using Windows, the writing was on the wall. If I wanted to stay in sync with the rest of the corporation and work/connect with others in the corporation, it had to be Windows.

These days I am guessing that most major corporations use Windows as their primary infrastructure. Also, Microsoft applications such as Office are pretty standard across the spectrum, although many organizations also use Google Docs.

So my first major reason for using Windows is to be better in sync with professional opportunities.

Secondly, there are developers whose mission is specifically aimed at making screen readers for Windows. Their entire mission is focused on getting the screen reader experience right and they can release fixes and updates when necessary.

Finally, it is possible to customize the experience for specific aplications using Windows screen readers because not only can users create custom scripts and plug-ins, but there are many such custom scripts and plug-ins readily available.

One other factor that I think is very important is that, although an application might be "accessible" in terms of being able to read and navigate to all elements on the screen, it doesn't mean that the aplication might be efficient or productive for a blind person to use. In any work environment, productivity is certainly important. It has been my experience that the developers of screen readers for PC's not only design their products to be accessible with as many aplications as possible, but also optimize the experience to make use of the programs efficient and productive. Although developers are getting more on board these days about making their products "accessible", they don't always think of making the experience efficient or productive for the user.

So, much as I like my iPhone, I will continue to use Windows!

--Pete

Way back when, in the days of Windows 8/8.1, there was something other than iOS and AndroidOS. It was called Windows Mobile. As you can guess, it was based off of the Windows 8 platform. It, was horrible ...
however, if Microsoft ever decides to bring that back, basing it off of Windows 11, or the upcoming Windows 12, I will totally jump on board!

@Peter,

I believe it is something like 90% of corporations in the world are using the Windows platform. I am not sure what the percentage is on Google's services, but I do know my particular states department for the blind uses the G Suite for their office applications. I think they primarily use Gmail, Sheets, Slides, Docs, Drive, and Microsoft Teams.
Not sure why they don't use Google Meet, rather than Teams, but whatever's clever ...

Hi,
Explorer++ is like Windows Explorer, it's a way to navigate through all your folders on your computer. When I say all folders, I mean things that are located under the c drive, I don't know if that includes system files and folders though. Maybe it does, but I've never needed to go there. The reason I got Explorer++ was because I've got some folders in my documents folder that the Windows explorer doesn't like for some reason. It seems to have a problem with folders containing multiple file types for some weird reason. I don't know anything about that Explorer Patch thing, never heard of it. I actually found out about Explorer++ from ChatGPT, I asked it to give me some ideas of software that might help me navigate the folders on my computer better, and it came up with this. Explorer++ doesn't alter your start menu like that classic shell thing, it literally gives you a way to navigate your files and folders. You can search for things in Explorer++ too, so maybe you can get to system files and stuff. I've never needed the search feature though.

Hi Tara,

That sounds useful. I have noticed in the latest Windows 11 build, that navigating Explorer, feels an awful lot like navigating Finder in List view on macOS.

Neither is conducive of healthy blood pressure.
True story. 😩

I rarely use jaws, but is explorer++ accessible with it? I know that for explorer patcher it doesn't work well with jaws only nvda and for the 0.1/10 times I need to switch to fs for whatever reason (powerpoint!) this annoys me so I stuck to explorer for the cost of losing 10s of seconds per days.

Hi,
I should point out that Explorer++ is free. I've just tried this with JAWS. This is a very old program, and pretty basic. I'm wondering if that has something to do with the fact that JAWS does work with it. I can navigate through my folders and files, and it's pretty snappy like with NVDA. It's a million times faster than the default Windows explorer. And I can use the search feature too. Explorer++ can navigate to system files and folders too apparently.

Interesting. I'll give it a try.

I've never been a big fan of Windows, which honestly I only used to play video-games back in my sighted days. In addition I find it interesting that everyone here complains about VoiceOver while praising third-party screen-readers on Windows whose sole reason for existing is the fact that first-party Windows accessibility has historically been pretty bad. The argument I'm trying to make here is that the popularity of Windows, particularly in the context of the blind community, does not result from merit but rather from its dominant market position as a byproduct of of years of monopolistic behavior legacy from back in the 90s, which enabled some third-party companies to make a business out of providing accessibility on the platform and eventually motivated the development of an open-source project driven by a blind developer community.

I have said many times that the screen-reader experience on macOS isn't good, and at one point I actually started a personal project hoping to change things, which ultimately landed me a job doing things not exactly related to accessibility, so my opinion is that fixing accessibility on macOS is very much within the realm of possibility. The real problem with macOS is that it never actually reached the critical mass required to take off as a competitor to Microsoft's desktop operating system dominance, so naturally businesses don't regard it as a profitable development target, and as a result the choice is pretty limited. I am also pretty sensitive to the productivity argument that the constellation of products built around Microsoft's desktop operating system brings to the table, but in my opinion praising a platform for the existence of third-party products and services whose only purpose is to address shortcomings of the platform itself is a hugely distorted misattribution of merit.

Lastly, while I know about Narrator, I have serious doubts that anyone is actually using it as a daily driver, so my question to the community here is: would you feel the same about Windows if none of the third-party screen-readers and products were available, including the modified Linux kernel that powers the Windows Subsystem for Linux? Because at the moment that's the only fair way to compare the merits of Windows and macOS as accessible platforms. I'm not against anyone making choices, quite the opposite, but at least try to not be biased when posting a public opinion about the merits of different technologies on the Internet, as that just contributes to the disinformation pandemic environment that we currently live in. If you can't be part of the solution, at least don't be part of the problem.

I think you have a misconception of why we praise Windows. We are not necessarily praising Windows because there are third-party solutions available. It is more that we are praising and operating system that fundamentally covers more areas with accessible software solutions for productivity, education, and yes, even gaming.
The fact that third-party solutions are available are simply a bonus to us.
Finally, your argument would have had more, "merit", had you not started it out with, "I've never been a big fan of windows."

NVDA is great, but it's more that the thing just works.

For example, I'm a huge youtube watcher, on windows I just go into the focus/forms mode/turn scan mode off with narrator, all with a similar keystroke and I can use j for rewind, k for play/pause and l for forward, where as with Voiceover, as far as I know, you'd either have to interact with the grouping for the buttons, vo right arrow to the one you want, then press vo plus space, or use the keyboard f keys to play/pause and so on.

If there's a better way, feel fre to let me know, but my point is that we can use shortcuts intended for sighted people like it's nothing, once you've learnt how, but with mack there does seam to be a little more messing around.

Having said that, if you can just use the j k and l keys, along with the rest, that would be great for mack users.

I think you have a misconception of why we praise Windows. We are not necessarily praising Windows because there are third-party solutions available. It is more that we are praising and operating system that fundamentally covers more areas with accessible software solutions for productivity, education, and yes, even gaming.

No, I'm not misconceived, and your comment actually reinforces my point. Those software solutions are not part of the platform itself, as even when they are provided by Microsoft you still have to acquire them separately, not to mention that, in order for them to become accessible and comfortable to use, you actually need a third-party accessibility offering, so you really are attributing undeserved merit to the platform. Also my comment is not based on judgment, but on the factual evidence that are all the other comments to this tread were just people praising Windows because NVDA and JAWS make it accessible and usable, and last I checked, those were not Microsoft products, nor did they ship with Windows.

The fact that third-party solutions are available are simply a bonus to us.

Care to answer the question I asked in the previous comment? Would you be using Windows if all you could use were the applications and services provided with a clean install of Windows without a single third-party application? Because I sure can use a Mac comfortably without installing anything else. It does not provide the best accessibility experience, but at least with a Mac I have no problems configuring the firmware as there's always a screen-reader available, and I don't have to use an audio dongle to install the operating system, access its recovery partition, or boot in safe mode. If your answer to this question is No, then you cannot devalue the third-party offerings by claiming that they're just a bonus.

Finally, your argument would have had more, "merit", had you not started it out with, "I've never been a big fan of windows."

How does a paragraph expressing my personal stance on a subject affect the merit of the hard logic and facts serving as the basis for my conclusion?

For example, I'm a huge youtube watcher, on windows I just go into the focus/forms mode/turn scan mode off with narrator, all with a similar keystroke and I can use j for rewind, k for play/pause and l for forward, where as with Voiceover, as far as I know, you'd either have to interact with the grouping for the buttons, vo right arrow to the one you want, then press vo plus space, or use the keyboard f keys to play/pause and so on.

Just had to address this misconception that was posted while I was writing my previous comment. While I do agree that there's a great deal of problems with VoiceOver, which you can confirm by reading my first post to this thread, what you said here is completely false, as typically speaking, the situations in which VoiceOver actually gets in the way of sighted application use are actually quite rare, meaning that, contrary to what you think, those keystrokes offer exactly the same functionality with or without VoiceOver enabled on Youtube and anywhere else on the web, without needing to activate or switch to specific navigation modes. I also find it interesting that you mention the ability to use controls for the sighted, but then criticize the ability to control video playback with keys whose primary function is precisely provide a universal interface for controlling multimedia content.

I'm sure it's possible to come up with at least one very specific case in which Narrator can outperform VoiceOver, but even that would not refute my point, because operating systems are intended for general purpose use, so unless Narrator consistently outperforms VoiceOver in nearly every task, I don't think those kinds of very specific examples would be very relevant.

Use narrator 3 seconds in terminal and try not to praise the mac, you'll find it very hard. As for narrator itself, on windows 7 and below it was nothing less than a joke, being a screen reader in the literal sense, reading *everything* with limited way to control barely everything.

There have been lots of great comments here dealing the specific technical details. I agree with the majortiy of them. To be perfectly honest though my predisposition is against all Apple products due to Apple's longstanding and pervasive corporate predisposition toward perpetuating a closed ecosystem as providing value to their customers. They've convinced their rabid cult that their "closed ecosystem" is a "garden" when I view it as a prison. I'm an old fart and have been involved with technology and Silicon Valley since the early days when Apple was dusting itself off after graduating from the garage. While I have never worked for Apple, I have worked for Apple's competitors. Being active in computer interface standards efforts both nationally and internationally. I've also interacted both professionally and socially with many prominent individuals employeed by Apple. It is profoundly clear that Apple prides itself on not wanting to provide open interfaces with their products. It has been this way since day one and continues through today. They anchor this attitude in a holier than thou attitude that everything they do is superior to the rest of industry and that adhering to open interface standards will drag them down from their high perch. It is disgusting. The only money Apple has gotten from me is a short binge of the Apple TV streaming service. They do have some decent content there. While they have provided some cool tech it never seems to be worth the premium pricing and the downsides of constantly being pressured to stay in the walled prison.

João you say, in my opinion praising a platform for the existence of third-party products and services whose only purpose is to address shortcomings of the platform itself is a hugely distorted misattribution of merit. I see your point from a purely theoretical basis: if a platform needs a load of third-party stuff to get tasks done, then it can't be that good. Yeah, I get it, the concept of having an inaccessible platform by default isn't great. But the fact is, we're living in the real world, and for whatever reason, those third-party solutions exist. Those third-party solutions on Windows like screen readers, various browsers and numerous other programs, offer, for me at least, a smoothe and productive experience. I don't care about the history of Microsoft and Apple and how one has mostly third-party solutions and the other has mostly accessible native solutions to work with. If I can do what I want efficiently and quickly with very few problems, I don't care whether the system is based on third-party stuff or not. Of course I'm going to praise a platform which I've been using for years, and has enabled me to do all the things I need efficiently. It's OK not to like Windows for whatever reason. It's OK not to like Mac for whatever reason. Everybody's use-case is different.
would you feel the same about Windows if none of the third-party screen-readers and products were available, including the modified Linux kernel that powers the Windows Subsystem for Linux? I can't adequately talk about a world that doesn't exist. However, as it stands, I certainly wouldn't be able to use Narrator with Google Docs, which is essential for my job. I don't really like Edge as a browser, I prefer third-party stuff. I don't care about the rhyme and reasoning behind why Windows has so much third-party stuff, the fact is, it does, and it works. If Windows had been like Mac, and there were a fully-functional screen reader from the start, I imagine there would be no Jaws, NVDA etc. meaning that if in the case of Narrator, if a website wasn't accessible, and you tried it in several browsers, and it still wasn't accessible, tough luck. I've found some things work better with JAWS, and some things work better with NVDA, and combine all this with different browsers and programs for various tasks, you get a lot of choice and possible workarounds for inaccessible stuff. The more screen readers available for a system the better. And motorbojo yes, I see your points. Rhetorical questions coming up: Why can't I just plug my iPhone into my Windows computer via USB or USBC so I can transfer files? As it stands, I have to use OneDrive or an equivalent,, or create a local server on my network between my computer, iPhone and iPad. Why can't your average programmer create add-ons for VoiceOver that might make stuff more accessible? I've never ever heard of people getting VoiceOver scripts for the Mac made by someone. I wonder if Apple even offer a service like this. Maybe they do if you're in a really specialist industry or something.

If you can use the j k l keys as intended that's great, it really is.

The using buttons on the keyboard comment is basically cause I'm lazy, either way, I just prefer windows.

I grew up on it, I prefer eloquence, i've tried macs and they're just not for me.

It all comes down to what your comfortable with, that's it.

every OS has issues, it's just dependent on you, what ones you're willing to deal with.

I'm leaving these mac vs windows topics alone, buy what you buy and enjoy what you enjoy because at the end of the day, your the one using the device, not me, not anyone else, you.

This comment attempts to address the previous ones so I'm not quoting anyone in particular this time.

I can understand making a stance against Apple for the way they behave when it comes to the freedom to use our computers and devices for whatever purpose we see fit. However Microsoft isn't any better in this regard, and people old enough should remember the huge backlash resulting from just fluctuating the idea of Trusted Platform Modules back in 2002, which they ended up finally realizing with Windows 11 because they watched how consumer apathy allowed Apple to actually pull off that stunt long before them. So if you use Microsoft products to make a stance against Apple's lack of respect for consumer rights, know that you are actually finding shelter in the products offered by the company that was the biggest contributor to the current state of affairs.

The only sane way to make a stance against what these companies are doing is switching and possibly contributing to a free and open operating system like Linux, which was what I did back in the 90s. Unfortunately restricting myself to Linux is too much of an inconvenience for me these days, not only because I'm blind now, but also because I'm long past the age when I regarded tinkering with the operating system and watching my Gentoo system compile code for hours as a source of entertainment. I do still use Linux on Raspberry Pis and Docker containers, but macOS is my daily driver now, and as a developer, the guarantee that, no matter what, I am never without a screen-reader, is a huge deal. In addition at some point I actually realized that the one who is most adversely affected by this kind of big tech boycott is actually me, so I don't do it anymore.

As for the productivity aspect of using Windows along with all the third-party offerings, that is an argument that I am very sensitive to and sympathize a lot with. My point was merely against praising a platform whose accessibility contributions have actually been minimal. It's not Windows that makes people productive, it's the stuff that is available to install on it. Whenever blind people ask me what platform I recommend using, I have no doubt in recommending Windows for its ubiquity and availability of accessible solutions, and in fact I have historically done that on several occasions even here on AppleVis, however when I think of switching to Windows myself, all the things that I hate about the platform like bloatware, interface inconsistencies, lack of attention to detail, poor track record on privacy rights, and lack of an alternative ecosystem to Apple's, make it simply not an appealing option for me. My point in this thread is that the availability of third-party accessibility solutions does not make Microsoft worth of appraisal given how little and how late they have actually started pretending to bother with the cause.

Regarding scripting, VoiceOver has been able to bind keys to AppleScript code for at least as long as I have been blind, and macOS as a whole is fully scriptable through the AppleEvents technology which powers things like AppleScript, Automator, and Shortcuts. My thoughts on why not many accessibility-related scripts are available for the platform, based entirely on my very limited empirical observations, is because very few people actually use VoiceOver on macOS, and the system itself has a very low market share, so it doesn't enjoy the community benefits that the market penetration of Windows allows it to enjoy. Furthermore the functionality provided by vanilla VoiceOver is already quite comprehensive, so people tend to not feel as compelled to address its shortcomings with third-party solutions as they do for Windows screen-readers.

As for the possibility of ending up locked out of my system due to a bad update breaking VoiceOver, I attribute a much lower probability for that to happen than to me accidentally deleting all my partitions and having to rely on the firmware screen-reader to install macOS from the Internet.

So in conclusion I understand why people use Windows, I do recommend Windows myself when people ask for an opinion, but I do not think Microsoft is worth any kind of reverence.

I agree with the way @Tara outlined the issues.

Certainly there are pros and cons to each OS. Having complete control over the hardware and software for an OS can certainly be an advantage in some circumstances for some users. Of course, the downside is, if the built in solutions aren't meeting one's needs, then the add-on options just aren't available to address those needs.

On the other hand, an open OS also may have its limitations since it has to accommodate many 3rd party solutions. The ready availability of numerous 3rd party solutions, however, can make it enabling for a user to find a solution that meets their needs.

In the case of Windows, the built in Narrator solution just might meet some user's needs. If it doesn't, the user fortunately has several alternative screen reader, screen magnification, and other solutions available. Similarly with Apple computers, the built in Voiceover solution just might meet the needs of many users. If it doesn't however, there are no similarly robust and sophisticated solutions that the user can turn to.

Also, as I pointed out in a previous post, regardless of which OS is "better" than the other, the fact is that most major corporations are deeply invested in Windows computers rather than Macs. Thus, in terms of employability, it would seem that one would best be facile with Windows systems.

Lastly, if a company's major product was a screen reader, would one expect such a screen reader to be more feature rich and productively useable for the end user or not as compared to a screen reader solution that was developed by the OS developer who is not really selling sdreen readers but rather is focused on selling complete systems?

So much of this seems to come down to personal choice, desired functionality, compatibility with one's working environment, etc. At least we have choices these days.

--Pete

I keep trying to bail out of this thread, but then someone always manages to make a comment that makes me return, so here I am again.

I have no idea where this belief that Windows is more open than macOS originates from, but it is factually wrong, and has been wrong at least since macOS 10.0. The Darwin system, which serves as the base for macOS, has a lot of truly open source components that you can download, modify, contribute to, copy, and distribute modifications of. All the security features provided by Macs and macOS itself can be fully disabled, people are totally free to install and run whatever they feel like on their Apple-branded desktop and laptop computers, and macOS itself has a Single Unix System certification, meaning that it is fully compatible with portable software targeting standard Unix-based systems. Contrast that to Windows, where you can't really even read the source code for its kernel, I think that it can be easily argued that windows is light years behind macOS from being able to making any true claims of platform openness. Other Apple platforms are walled gardens, yes,, but macOS is a glaring exception, and also the elephant in the room that Apple can't simply argue against when they make claims that opening up iOS would inherently lead to a huge security problem.

As I said earlier, the availability of third-party options for Windows has absolutely nothing to do with the openness of the platform, and everything to do with its legacy of monopolistic abuse back in the 90s that earned it a highly dominant position in the desktop operating system market.

Thanks for all the info. I had no idea Microsoft are responsible for DRM, a concept I hate. I never knew the origins of DRM until now. Then again, books from Apple Books are protected by DRM. Fascinating article you posted above. Microsoft are far from perfect of course. Some of their software like Teams is useable but clunky with a screen reader. A listener to Jonathan Mosen's Access On podcast recently wrote in about Microsoft Bookings, which has a lot of issues with screen readers. Apparently Microsoft are working on it with them, but people shouldn't have to take time out of their working day to point out accessibility flaws which shouldn't be there in the first place, and then spend ages trying to get these things sorted. Inaccessible software across industries is a huge problem. Thanks for the info about Apple scripts too. It's a vicious circle: if more people used VoiceOver with different software, more things would get scripted. Here in the UK, if you go to a regular state school or even a school for the blind, you're most likely to learn Windows than anything else. It only seems to be private schools where sometimes people use other stuff like Chromebooks for example. What you start off learning is probably what you'll stick with, unless you decide to make a radical change for whatever reason. I don't usually make stances. If I started doing that, I probably wouldn't use anything.

"No, I'm not misconceived, and your comment actually reinforces my point. Those software solutions are not part of the platform itself, as even when they are provided by Microsoft you still have to acquire them separately, not to mention that, in order for them to become accessible and comfortable to use, you actually need a third-party accessibility offering, so you really are attributing undeserved merit to the platform. Also my comment is not based on judgment, but on the factual evidence that are all the other comments to this tread were just people praising Windows because NVDA and JAWS make it accessible and usable, and last I checked, those were not Microsoft products, nor did they ship with Windows."

You criticize Windows users and Windows in general for its 3rd party capabilities, claiming them to be nothing more than a crutch to overcome shortcomings, and turn around in another post and praise Apple and macOS for being, "... more open than Microsoft", and while I am likely paraphrasing here, my point is that you praise macOS for its 3rd party capabilities.
I suppose we could argue over which operating system has the best 3rd party solution, but ... why? Just, why ... ?

"Care to answer the question I asked in the previous comment? Would you be using Windows if all you could use were the applications and services provided with a clean install of Windows without a single third-party application? Because I sure can use a Mac comfortably without installing anything else. It does not provide the best accessibility experience, but at least with a Mac I have no problems configuring the firmware as there's always a screen-reader available, and I don't have to use an audio dongle to install the operating system, access its recovery partition, or boot in safe mode. If your answer to this question is No, then you cannot devalue the third-party offerings by claiming that they're just a bonus."

I will try to answer these in the correct order. Please bare with me ...

""Care to answer the question I asked in the previous comment? Would you be using Windows if all you could use were the applications and services provided with a clean install of Windows without a single third-party application?"
Someone already answered this one in the same way that I would have, had I answered you first. That is to say I do not know. Perhaps. Perhaps not. That is a non-factual question based on a non-reality. So my honest answer would have to be I honestly do, not, know.

"Because I sure can use a Mac comfortably without installing anything else."

Guess what? Me too! I still have my old MacBook Pro sitting no more than about 7 or 8 inches to the side of my current PC laptop. I could also do the same on my Windows 11 laptop. Because Narrator is far more advanced than it has ever been. Is it better than VoiceOver on Mac? Probably not in terms of functionality, but that was, not, your question or statement. Your statement is what you can comfortably do on your preferred OS. Good for you. My question is why on God's green earth would you want to? Seriously as a blind user do you not realize how many useful 3rd party tools are available for macOS? Ah well, whatever's clever. Oh, and Narrator does not have all the bugs and/or glitches of your precious macOS VoiceOver, either.

"It does not provide the best accessibility experience, but at least with a Mac I have no problems configuring the firmware as there's always a screen-reader available..."

Oh? Me too! Because like VoiceOver is built into macOS, Narrator is built into Windows.

"... and I don't have to use an audio dongle to install the operating system, access its recovery partition, or boot in safe mode."

You have been reading too many virtual machine threads here and elsewhere, because no body here needs to do any of that aforementioned nonsense with Windows on an actual Windows machine.

"If your answer to this question is No, then you cannot devalue the third-party offerings by claiming that they're just a bonus."

It is not, and I can, and I do.

I have said this so many times in the last 11 months, but there is no end all, be all system. Apple is not better than Microsoft. Microsoft is not better than Apple. Well, why don't we throw Google under the bus while we are at it; Google is not better than Apple or Microsoft, and vice versa, and versa vice.

The only true, "best device", is the one that works, "for you", believe that.

This thread was never meant to be yet another PC vs Mac debate, but as always some body always tries to skate uphill just to prove a point.

So, if we are going to point fingers, and play the blame game ...
So be it.

A brief on Apple's Anti-consumer abuse and Sweatshop Laboring:
https://www.makeuseof.com/problems-with-apple/

More on Apple's Anti-consumerism and Employee Abuse:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Criticism_of_Apple_Inc.#:~:text=Apple%20Inc.%20has%20been%20the%20subject%20of,complaints)%2C%20and%20its%20response%20to%20worker%20organizing.

More details on Apple's Sweatshop Laboring:
https://www.cbsnews.com/news/the-dark-side-of-shiny-apple-products/

iCloud & Photos: A look at Privacy Infringement, and "Terms of Service":
https://bigthink.com/technology-innovation/big-tech-privacy-apple/

Apple's (in)famous Planned Obsolescence lawsuit:
https://www.bbc.com/news/technology-67911517

Do enjoy the articles.

One of the most compelling pulls towards Windows is accessible gaming, however I use both OSs on a fairly regular basis.

I have read all of the comments to this thread with interest. When comparing only built-in screen readers, I agree with João Santos that macOS is superior and offers the better experience.
But the thing is that 9 times out of 10 in these types of discussions, people aren't comparing the OS' with first-party options only; people are comparing the OS' as they actually are able to use them. And on Windows, this almost always (in my experience at least) means using the OS with a third-party screen reader. When it comes to usability for daily tasks, I find Windows with JAWS to be superior to macOS with VoiceOver. I wish it weren't so. I really want to love the Mac, because it has a lot going for it--especially with the integration with other Apple services. Can I do the basics? Yes. Can I troubleshoot the OS? Yes. Do most things work? Yes. But can I navigate the web quickly and efficiently and really get things done when I need to? Not as much.

Best summary I've seen. It depends so much about your workflow. If a heavy GSuite blind user ask me about the mac I'll certainly never say it's the right option for you compared to windows or chromeos because it just isn't. In contrast, a heavy terminal user using lots of linux tools? ... Okay for me I had a grudje against terminal because of my specific hardware apparently, but overall, it works relatively well if you have the right hardware.
I'll add that if you're only a windows user or only a mac user, and have never fully seen the other side, then you are truely missing on a lot especially as far as accessibility is concerned. Some might say that the argument with accessibility on mac is questionable. It probably is. But overall? Give yourself more than one year, suffer with it a bit, and you then have a big versatility that adds up in your toolchain of little blind tricks to be a good employable person as a blind in the modern digital age. Because let's face it, accessibility in the workplace is going to be veri similar to that of macos, if not way way worst, and you better be able to navigate by yourself in that because no one but you can help yourself. Screen reader are so much beyond just the software, there is a real ecosystem, a blind digital language that you have to grasp, speak, and do play words with. And there is a difference in my opinion between being native blind and all the other combinations. This might be controversial but I think it also plays a role. I am of course saying this generally.

This will never end. People who have good experience with one or the other, will blow the tronpet for it. For me Windows does what I need it to do. Right now to much muscle memory that makes the use easy. If I tried to learn the Mac, it will be frustration and headache.

@Chamomile similar are paid by either company to restart the debate when people are becoming too at ease and peaceful with whatever tech they are currently using. What peace of mind even mean guys? 😂
Seriously though, I think that these thread are still important once in a while because it's there that we get the pulse of how it's being on either platform mor than anywhere else in the forums. See you in 2026! If the world still exists by then.

I started using it in school and am used to it, in Canada CNIB really pushes windows on to you as well as iPhone, I got to use my friends Mac and well I didn’t do much on it other then basic navigation it’s not that bad, I still like windows more but if Mac was the only option I could use it

You criticize Windows users and Windows in general for its 3rd party capabilities, claiming them to be nothing more than a crutch to overcome shortcomings, and turn around in another post and praise Apple and macOS for being, "... more open than Microsoft", and while I am likely paraphrasing here, my point is that you praise macOS for its 3rd party capabilities.

What I'm criticizing since the beginning, which you can actually read for yourself as I mentioned it explicitly in the subject of my first reply to this thread, is the misattribution of merit to Windows, when the platform has never done much for accessibility, and I used the fact that pretty much everyone chooses third-party accessibility options as a demonstration of that. My point is that Windows isn't any better because those offers are available, as there's no technical reason for the same kind of option to not be available on macOS.

I suppose we could argue over which operating system has the best 3rd party solution, but ... why? Just, why ... ?

I don't know, that was never my point or intention, and I fail to understand how you reached the conclusion that it was.

Someone already answered this one in the same way that I would have, had I answered you first. That is to say I do not know. Perhaps. Perhaps not. That is a non-factual question based on a non-reality. So my honest answer would have to be I honestly do, not, know.

Unlike statements affirming a conclusion based on logical deduction, questions assume a certain level of uncertainty, so they are not required to assume facts. From a logical point of view it's usually best to actually not make any assumptions when asking questions, as otherwise you risk loading or framing them, which is a fallacy. I asked a hypothetical question in an attempt to cause introspection, but you are absolutely free to not want to do that mental exercise if you wish, however the hypothetical nature of the question doesn't make it any less valid.

Guess what? Me too! I still have my old MacBook Pro sitting no more than about 7 or 8 inches to the side of my current PC laptop. I could also do the same on my Windows 11 laptop. Because Narrator is far more advanced than it has ever been. Is it better than VoiceOver on Mac? Probably not in terms of functionality, but that was, not, your question or statement. Your statement is what you can comfortably do on your preferred OS. Good for you. My question is why on God's green earth would you want to? Seriously as a blind user do you not realize how many useful 3rd party tools are available for macOS? Ah well, whatever's clever. Oh, and Narrator does not have all the bugs and/or glitches of your precious macOS VoiceOver, either.

I have no idea why you are trying to attack me somehow by claiming that I'm biased towards macOS, which is not true, but even if it was, it would not invalidate my arguments, so this is just pointless. I also criticize macOS a lot, and even recommend Windows to most people,, as you can easily read in my previous posts to this thread. My question was specifically whether your feelings towards Windows would be the same if it wasn't for the availability of all the third-party tools, because that's the only way to fairly judge platforms.

Oh? Me too! Because like VoiceOver is built into macOS, Narrator is built into Windows.

Well I have a Windows 11 license that I never actually used because the computer that I was going to install it on had an unsupported audio device. While I understand that the situation might be a little better with a first-party Surface computer, last time I checked, PC firmwares were still generally inaccessible, which is a problem that I do not face with a modern Mac. Not only that but, the fact that, for some reason, Microsoft decided to not include VirtIO drivers in the installation media, which are otherwise supported by macOS and Linux, makes it difficult to install it on virtual machines without USB-based audio peripherals.

You have been reading too many virtual machine threads here and elsewhere, because no body here needs to do any of that aforementioned nonsense with Windows on an actual Windows machine.

No, what I said is based on my personal experience with Windows 11 in 2023, on an otherwise pretty normal ASUS computer that Debian Linux had no problem providing audio for during the installation process. The computer came without an operating system, so I purchased Windows 11 from the Microsoft website, and after facing a number of hurdles to actually flash it to a bootable thumb drive without another Windows computer, I found out that I could not actually install it because it had no audio drivers for that hardware.

It is not, and I can, and I do.

Well then you're reasoning is no longer based on logic, which proves irrationality, at which point you lose the debate, doubly so because you actually admit to not even care.

I have said this so many times in the last 11 months, but there is no end all, be all system. Apple is not better than Microsoft. Microsoft is not better than Apple. Well, why don't we throw Google under the bus while we are at it; Google is not better than Apple or Microsoft, and vice versa, and versa vice.

The only true, "best device", is the one that works, "for you", believe that.

I do not disagree with that, however in the face of the misattribution of merit to Microsoft's products, I felt compelled to state some facts. I said many times even here on this thread that people are free to make choices, I am not against that, my problem is when people start making things up to justify their biases, because at that point they're just spreading misinformation.

Regarding the articles that you linked to, I am well aware of Apple's abuses. However as I mentioned before in this thread, at some point in my life I realized that I am the only one who gets to lose anything tangential by boycotting big tech, so ethics are no longer involved in my choices as a consumer.

To conclude, you seem to somehow believe that I am defending Apple, and attacking me from that perspective, when in fact I am not. It is true that I have a general distaste for Windows, for reasons that I also mentioned in this thread, however I do not let my personal taste influence my judgment, and for that reason I actually suggest Windows to other blind people when asked, not because I think the platform is any good, but because from a practical perspective, the third-party solutions make it sufficiently comfortable to use. My comments here were motivated only by my observation that people were praising the platform for things that it does not actually do well without third-party tools. I would have said nothing if people were praising NVDA, for example, but people are praising Windows because NVDA makes it comfortable to use, so I felt like pointing that out.

I migrated from Windows to Mac around ten years ago. I've been satisfied, for the most part. Yet I will probably return to Windows. It's a transition that I don't expect to be easy.

I'm a writer and editor, and Apple and the Mac are a poor choice for that line of work. The one bright spot for the Mac is that Scrivener works well with VoiceOver. In fact, the Mac and iOS are the only two platforms where Scrivener is fully accessible.

When I move to Windows, I'll miss Scrivener on MacOS - along with the Mac's excellent Unix-style shell interface. But what I will gain in return is a platform where the world's most popular app, MS Word, runs reliably and accessibly. I'll still have Scrivener on iOS, so the only thing I lose is decent shell support.

The transition will not be a light switch. I'll probably introduce a Windows laptop and use it alongside my Mac for several months or years. But I won't buy another Mac from Apple, so when my M4 Mac Mini reaches EOL, the transition will be complete.

Before I begin, let me state up front that I am not a diehard Apple fan, a diehard Windows fan or a diehard Android despiser. I use the tool that's appropriate for the job. With that out of the way (ignore the ANdroid crack, it's irrelevant) let's proceed.

The one reason I still use Windows is ... its ready availability of games. Not just audiogames either; mods for several mainstream games are only on Windows, even if the games themselves are available on Mac i.e. Hearthstone. If I want to play these games I can either: 1. Use Windows. 2. Harangue the devs of those games and mods for work they can't or won't do, each for their own reasons, or 3. Use Windows and discuss ways for the devs to make their game/mod accessible on Mac, with little hope that it'll ever happen. More often than not, I go with option 1, sometimes with option 3 if the developer seems open to the idea. So at this point my time is split between Mac for work and what games I can get to run from the App store, and serious gaming on the Windows VM. The argument that Windows is nothing to a blind person without third party apps is pretty sound to me, though it's becoming ever so gradually less true with Windows 11. You can, for example, browse the Web, write and edit documents and control your computer with Narrator; I once went through a whole day using nothing but Narrator as an experiment. But if you want to play said games, code seriously or basically anything else, better install one of those third party screen readers. Your Windows machine won't be a large desk ornament without them, but you won't get much more than the basics out of it with Narrator, even in its current quite usable state. As for those who lump Mac in with the rest of Apple's products as examples of the walled garden strategy, do a quick web search. You'll find any number of apps than can be installed on the Mac, many of which never even saw the back door of the App store. As a previous poster pointed out, barring system incompatibility issues, you can install whatever you like.

Disclaimer: I want to apologize to Chamomile, and the AppleVis Team if my responses in this thread are in any way offensive. I feel that this topic was meant to be a debate on the enjoyment Windows users get from using Windows. Not another PC vs Mac debate. Of course, some body is always trying to skate uphill ...

"What I'm criticizing since the beginning, which you can actually read for yourself as I mentioned it explicitly in the subject of my first reply to this thread, is the misattribution of merit to Windows, when the platform has never done much for accessibility, and I used the fact that pretty much everyone chooses third-party accessibility options as a demonstration of that. My point is that Windows isn't any better because those offers are available, as there's no technical reason for the same kind of option to not be available on macOS."

Sure, within your first paragraph you stated ...:
""I find it interesting that everyone here complains about VoiceOver while praising third-party screen-readers on Windows whose sole reason for existing is the fact that first-party Windows accessibility has historically been pretty bad.""

If you actually took the time to critically review the replies prior to your original post, you will see that users here are praising the Windows Platform for a multitude of reasons, including 1st party productivity and entertainment solutions, as well as access to 3rd party accessibility solutions. There are many, many applications for education, productivity, finance, and gaming. These are 1st party solutions, and these categories are just a miniscule number.
Regarding screen reading technology, it does not matter that macOS, then OS X, came out with their screen reader solution before Microsoft developed their current screen reader. The point of this thread was to ask why those of us who prefer to use the Windows Platform, choose to do so. There were no modifiers within the original post. It was simply an open-ended question. Please stop trying to turn this into a debate about whose operating system is the, "best",. I said in my last reply, that the only system that is, "the best", is which ever one works for you, which ever one meets all of your needs. If macOS and VoiceOver for Mac serves your needs, if you are productive and find joy in using your preferred OS, then kudos to you; that is all that should matter. No one here is criticizing you for your choice. So why are you criticizing us for ours?

"I don't know, that was never my point or intention, and I fail to understand how you reached the conclusion that it was."

I said that because you were putting a negative light on Microsoft as an open operating system, while praising macOS for being, in fact, an open operating system. In other words, my comment about comparing 3rd party software was a glib remark in response to your bias against Microsoft's 3rd party solutions.

"Unlike statements affirming a conclusion based on logical deduction, questions assume a certain level of uncertainty, so they are not required to assume facts. From a logical point of view it's usually best to actually not make any assumptions when asking questions, as otherwise you risk loading or framing them, which is a fallacy. I asked a hypothetical question in an attempt to cause introspection, but you are absolutely free to not want to do that mental exercise if you wish, however the hypothetical nature of the question doesn't make it any less valid."

You are using semantics to argue against using semantics. I did answer your question, as did a couple of others on here. Whether or not you accept the answers given is irrelevant.

"I have no idea why you are trying to attack me somehow by claiming that I'm biased towards macOS, which is not true, but even if it was, it would not invalidate my arguments, so this is just pointless. I also criticize macOS a lot, and even recommend Windows to most people,, as you can easily read in my previous posts to this thread. My question was specifically whether your feelings towards Windows would be the same if it wasn't for the availability of all the third-party tools, because that's the only way to fairly judge platforms."

No body is attacking you. Personally, or otherwise. You started this debate by coming onto a Windows-exclusive forum and criticizing its members for their feelings on the utilization of the Windows Platform over other Platforms. Do not complain about it when said members respond to your biased remarks with reasoning based on their life experiences with said operating system.

"Well I have a Windows 11 license that I never actually used because the computer that I was going to install it on had an unsupported audio device. While I understand that the situation might be a little better with a first-party Surface computer, last time I checked, PC firmwares were still generally inaccessible, which is a problem that I do not face with a modern Mac. Not only that but, the fact that, for some reason, Microsoft decided to not include VirtIO drivers in the installation media, which are otherwise supported by macOS and Linux, makes it difficult to install it on virtual machines without USB-based audio peripherals."

That does sound frustrating. One experience is no reason to go online and shun Windows however.

"No, what I said is based on my personal experience with Windows 11 in 2023, on an otherwise pretty normal ASUS computer that Debian Linux had no problem providing audio for during the installation process. The computer came without an operating system, so I purchased Windows 11 from the Microsoft website, and after facing a number of hurdles to actually flash it to a bootable thumb drive without another Windows computer, I found out that I could not actually install it because it had no audio drivers for that hardware."
A number of hurdles? It sounds like you purchased a faulty computer, or you got a bad bootable install for Windows. It should have been straightforward for you, and no, I am not accusing you, just stating that it sounds like you had a bad time of it.

"Well then you're reasoning is no longer based on logic, which proves irrationality, at which point you lose the debate, doubly so because you actually admit to not even care."

Ok, ok, you really are confused. Let us take another look at your post which lead to my reply, in which your reply makes absolutely no sense.

You said ...
"""Care to answer the question I asked in the previous comment? Would you be using Windows if all you could use were the applications and services provided with a clean install of Windows without a single third-party application? Because I sure can use a Mac comfortably without installing anything else. It does not provide the best accessibility experience, but at least with a Mac I have no problems configuring the firmware as there's always a screen-reader available, and I don't have to use an audio dongle to install the operating system, access its recovery partition, or boot in safe mode. If your answer to this question is No, then you cannot devalue the third-party offerings by claiming that they're just a bonus.""

I then replied ...
"It is not, and I can, and I do."
In other words I am stating that my answer to your inquiry was, "My answer is not 'no'", that I, "can", use Windows out of the box as it has a fully functional screen reader built-in, and I do not need an audio dongle in order to do any of this.

Your response to this ...
""Well then you're reasoning is no longer based on logic, which proves irrationality, at which point you lose the debate, doubly so because you actually admit to not even care.""

This statement makes no sense. You are saying I am irrational and illogical because I can install and run Windows, using only built-in software, without the need for an audio dongle. How is stating a fact about my experiences with Windows make me irrational, illogical, or show that I do not care? If anything I am passionate about my chosen platform.

"I do not disagree with that, however in the face of the misattribution of merit to Microsoft's products, I felt compelled to state some facts. I said many times even here on this thread that people are free to make choices, I am not against that, my problem is when people start making things up to justify their biases, because at that point they're just spreading misinformation."

There is no misattribution of merit. There is one users highly opinionated point of view on fellow users here. As I stated above, had you critically reviewed responses up to the point of your initial post, you would have picked up on the fact that the majority praise Microsoft for 1st party productivity and entertainment solutions, as well as 3rd party accessibility solutions. I do see how you would perceive the 3rd party accessibility as being a misattribution of merit, but that would only be true in the sense of accessibility, not the entirety of the Windows Platform.

"Regarding the articles that you linked to, I am well aware of Apple's abuses. However as I mentioned before in this thread, at some point in my life I realized that I am the only one who gets to lose anything tangential by boycotting big tech, so ethics are no longer involved in my choices as a consumer."

If this were true, you never would have stated ...
""praising third-party screen-readers on Windows whose sole reason for existing is the fact that first-party Windows accessibility has historically been pretty bad. The argument I'm trying to make here is that the popularity of Windows, particularly in the context of the blind community, does not result from merit but rather from its dominant market position as a byproduct of of years of monopolistic behavior legacy from back in the 90s, which enabled some third-party companies to make a business out of providing accessibility on the platform and eventually motivated the development of an open-source project driven by a blind developer community.""

"To conclude, you seem to somehow believe that I am defending Apple, and attacking me from that perspective, when in fact I am not. It is true that I have a general distaste for Windows, for reasons that I also mentioned in this thread, however I do not let my personal taste influence my judgment, and for that reason I actually suggest Windows to other blind people when asked, not because I think the platform is any good, but because from a practical perspective, the third-party solutions make it sufficiently comfortable to use. My comments here were motivated only by my observation that people were praising the platform for things that it does not actually do well without third-party tools. I would have said nothing if people were praising NVDA, for example, but people are praising Windows because NVDA makes it comfortable to use, so I felt like pointing that out."

... and if this were at all true you would have presented your initial argument in a far more approachable, and far less offensive manner. Instead, you chose to scold everyone based on your own assumptions. To borrow a page from your chapter ...
""Lastly, while I know about Narrator, I have serious doubts that anyone is actually using it as a daily driver, so my question to the community here is: would you feel the same about Windows if none of the third-party screen-readers and products were available, including the modified Linux kernel that powers the Windows Subsystem for Linux? Because at the moment that's the only fair way to compare the merits of Windows and macOS as accessible platforms. I'm not against anyone making choices, quite the opposite, but at least try to not be biased when posting a public opinion about the merits of different technologies on the Internet, as that just contributes to the disinformation pandemic environment that we currently live in. If you can't be part of the solution, at least don't be part of the problem.""

Stop assuming. Nobody was comparing macOS and Windows. At least, not until you made your initial post. This is not a PC vs Mac debate. Never was. Stop trying to make it one.
Also, more people use Narrator than you seem to realize. We are not talking about Narrator from 2 decades ago, it really only became viable as a stand-alone screen reader within this last decade. Because you are so desperate to debate Mac over Windows, let us not forget that Apple has been at the accessibility game for far longer than Microsoft. Still Narrator has come a long way, and fast.
Finally, I will reitterate that no, one, is, attacking you. You started this debate, did you honestly expect no one to respond?

Whose the irrationally, illogical one now ... ? 🤨

Let's go guys. This thread is still very interesting! Incredible.
Windows 3rd party accessibility is good because microsoft manage keyboard first navigation natively and better than apple and let screen readers use their api they've been more or less incentivized to create to do the more subtle screen reader tasks. Macos, whether it's because of that accessibility law or not, attempts to do everything in-house.
Being more opened on a closed hardware... But nobody here really dislike mac as an os, and we'll agree that windows defaults without going the full gpedit regedit and other customization way is honestly a terrible os with great 3rd party accessibility.
For me open source and software / hardware philosophy has never been the most important thing. Yes, nvda is a great product, but look at the accessibility pain on linux distros with desktops, add wayland vs xorg on top, and you'll see that open source and fragmentation is the worst combination for accessibility because at the end of the day big tech will always gain us as customers because they have the extra money to invest for decent accessibility. In my opinion nowadays there's literally no 1 company who's not sketchy, and all this philosophy or who did what first / better... doesn't matter at all to me as long as the accessibility experience is decent enough for me to do everything. I'm not the only here using both mac and windows everyday, but I think there are fewer people who have such a balance in terms of how often they use one os over the other for what. Same goes for privacy friendly or not, for blind, and I know that this will be an unpopular opinion of mine, accessibility and user experience is the first and last thing that should matter as of writing. Yes, if you're a real dev (which I'm not currently) opensourceness is great as you can patch a11y yourself if you have the knowledge. But I realized that whenever we follow xy philosophy or what not, accessibility become an even bigger afterthought. So as stated earlier, using only windows over the mac can have its advantage (and we agree that the majority of blind users in the world use windows on desktop) or vice versa, but macos has still brought to me a new way of thinking, a native shell which supports most linux things (this matters to me as well), and especially a new accessibility philosophy I was just not aware before.
I'm sorry if you had a bad experience with the sound on windows, this is rare on native computers.
ps: will proofread later, writing on iphone thanks to bsi.

The initial learning curve for other side is so high that now I feel I don't want to get in to it. The productivity gain against time lost in learning, head banged on the tables, equations don't add up.
Still, I am curious though and try to read on it time to time and try out things whenever I can get my hands on them.
For those arguing that windows has done nothing for accessibility, I would point them towards things like Windows accessibility menu, Microsoft disability support, which is not just an inbox, it's a real live service with remote support people with knowledge of our screen-readers etc manning the tables 24/7.
I would point towards the fact that 3rd party accessibility solutions exists nicely on Windows simply because may be Microsoft allows them to exist. Does other side allow 3rd party solutions to exist?
It's rather week excuse to say that because of our robust built-in tools, we don't allow 3rd party tools to work on our platforms. As someone very kindly pointed out recently in some other post, no software is perfect. There's always need for 3rd party solutions where built-in ones don't do the job. Those saying otherwise, just search for VO Bugs on forum and start counting.
Now, It's ironic that the makers of Seeing AI hasn't launched something on Windows to get description of images, videos, make PDFs accessible, align ourselves in camera frame properly, etc. etc. But then again, we've got Be My Eyes for some of that.
It's also frustrating that Excel performs very poorly with NVDA and tables in powerpoint slides are not readable properly. Microsoft is a bit money-minded as well, bringing new Windows versions and hinting to upgrade to new laptops for some or the other reason time to time, buy Office 365 subscription, etc. etc. So yeah, I guess, I've got my complains about Windows as well.

Agree on powerpoint that's literally the only reason why I still have jaws. Excel works relatively okay with nvda, and when it was not I was using narrator rather than jaws just because :) .
"The initial learning curve for other side is so high that now I feel I don't want to get in to it."
I said the opposite in fact that because it's harder you better learn it in case that one day you have to use this other product. I completely get that it's exhausting though, look at my comments about linux accessibility.

The first time I learn windows was with 98. I did not need to take a class or get help. Just play with it. JAWS made it easy. Now like I stated before is muscle memory. Do not need to think about it. When I was working I had to learn Lotus note.Also was simple. From what I hear learning about VO on the Mac is to much and I am no longer learning new things.

Sure, within your first paragraph you stated ...:

""I find it interesting that everyone here complains about VoiceOver while praising third-party screen-readers on Windows whose sole reason for existing is the fact that first-party Windows accessibility has historically been pretty bad.""

If you actually took the time to critically review the replies prior to your original post, you will see that users here are praising the Windows Platform for a multitude of reasons, including 1st party productivity and entertainment solutions, as well as access to 3rd party accessibility solutions. There are many, many applications for education, productivity, finance, and gaming. These are 1st party solutions, and these categories are just a miniscule number.

I'm beginning to wonder whether you don't really understand or are just pretending to not understand at this point. I also believe that first-party means something non-standard to you.

The reason why I posted my first comment to this thread is because people are attributing merit to a platform for things that, either the platform does not actually do well, or does not do at all, without third-party tools. It was not, and remains not, my intention to contribute to a Mac vs PC debate, and I only used macOS as an example of a competing platform with just as much if not more potential than the one people are actually praising here, especially since it was mentioned on several occasions before I actually made my first comment.

As for the first-party vs third-party concepts, Only things produced by the same company are generally considered first-party. Things produced by other companies or organizations are all third-party, and the user is the second-party. In any case since most of the software in the categories that you mentioned is not part of the platform and needs to be acquired, I do not even think it's fair to consider it when judging the platform itself.

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Regarding screen reading technology, it does not matter that macOS, then OS X, came out with their screen reader solution before Microsoft developed their current screen reader. The point of this thread was to ask why those of us who prefer to use the Windows Platform, choose to do so. There were no modifiers within the original post. It was simply an open-ended question. Please stop trying to turn this into a debate about whose operating system is the, "best",. I said in my last reply, that the only system that is, "the best", is which ever one works for you, which ever one meets all of your needs. If macOS and VoiceOver for Mac serves your needs, if you are productive and find joy in using your preferred OS, then kudos to you; that is all that should matter. No one here is criticizing you for your choice. So why are you criticizing us for ours?

I have already addressed this in the comment you're replying to, so let me just quote myself:

What I'm criticizing since the beginning, which you can actually read for yourself as I mentioned it explicitly in the subject of my first reply to this thread, is the misattribution of merit to Windows, when the platform has never done much for accessibility, and I used the fact that pretty much everyone chooses third-party accessibility options as a demonstration of that. My point is that Windows isn't any better because those offers are available, as there's no technical reason for the same kind of option to not be available on macOS.

I do not disagree with that, however in the face of the misattribution of merit to Microsoft's products, I felt compelled to state some facts. I said many times even here on this thread that people are free to make choices, I am not against that, my problem is when people start making things up to justify their biases, because at that point they're just spreading misinformation.

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I said that because you were putting a negative light on Microsoft as an open operating system, while praising macOS for being, in fact, an open operating system. In other words, my comment about comparing 3rd party software was a glib remark in response to your bias against Microsoft's 3rd party solutions.

I was merely stating facts, not really praising anything, and the fact is that Windows is as closed as it gets, and I'd still like to understand what makes people think otherwise. Just because you can build on top of it doesn't mean it's open; you can build just as much on top of macOS, because they are both platforms that allow you to use your computer freely, however only one of these platforms allows me to build modified versions of its kernel, and it's not Windows. In addition I did not make those statements out of the blue, I only did so because someone claimed that Windows is an open platform when in fact it isn't, it's just a platform that benefits from a lot of popularity resulting from a legacy of abuse as a dominant market player during the early days of the commoditization of personal computers.

I criticize Apple as much, because the truth is that pretty much all big tech has some past or present history of market abuse. These companies are always founded under extremely favorable economic, political, and regulatory conditions where they get to exploit the market as they please due to the lack of regulation, establish themselves, and then lobby lawmakers to protect their positions, so none of them actually deserve any praise.

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You are using semantics to argue against using semantics. I did answer your question, as did a couple of others on here. Whether or not you accept the answers given is irrelevant.

As I said, my intention behind the question was to cause introspection. The actual answer has little relevance to me. I have used Windows in the past, both sighted and blind, and every time I did was because the exclusive availability of some third-party software for the platform justified it, so based on my experience, I believe that I can extrapolate how people would actually feel if those third-party options were not available on that platform.

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No body is attacking you. Personally, or otherwise. You started this debate by coming onto a Windows-exclusive forum and criticizing its members for their feelings on the utilization of the Windows Platform over other Platforms. Do not complain about it when said members respond to your biased remarks with reasoning based on their life experiences with said operating system.

For starters I never criticized anyone for using a platform, only for attributing merit that it does not actually have. Secondly, It is a fact that you have been calling me biased without directly addressing any of my arguments all along. You seem to be more interested in projecting me as a bigot in order to subvert the debate than in actually tackling my real position. Up until now I thought you were just confused, but at this point I am beginning to believe that this is your real intention.

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That does sound frustrating. One experience is no reason to go online and shun Windows however.

This is called gaslighting, and is a prime example of the personal attacks that I was referring to. First you claim that Windows has no audio problems and that I'm reading too much about people experiencing audio issues on virtual machines, then I bring up an actual problem that I experienced myself and you use it to help portray me as emotional and biased in order to attempt to subvert the debate. If that is not a personal attack without actually tackling what I said., then I don't know what is.

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A number of hurdles? It sounds like you purchased a faulty computer, or you got a bad bootable install for Windows. It should have been straightforward for you, and no, I am not accusing you, just stating that it sounds like you had a bad time of it.

Sounds like you never went through that process yourself. The Windows installer you download from the Microsoft website contains an ISO9660-formatted filesystem, which is essentially the file system format commonly used in optical media like CDs and DVDs, and unlike with Linux distributions, you can't just flash that to a thumb drive and expect it to work because Microsoft does not support ISO9660 filesystems on thumb drives. Secondly, the installation image contains a huge WIM file that needs to be split in 4GB chunks, which is the size limit for files on the FAT32 file system, and that process is not trivial, as the content of that file also has to be modified accordingly. Thirdly you have to ensure that the right EFI boot code is also on the thumb drive. Since none of these processes is trivial, they require special tools to accomplish. For Windows Microsoft has a Media Creation Tool available on their website, but people on other platforms are pretty much on their own.

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Ok, ok, you really are confused. Let us take another look at your post which lead to my reply, in which your reply makes absolutely no sense.

No wonder, considering how terse the paragraph I was replying to actually was.. The way I interpreted it, given its context, was that you did not have an answer to my question but still felt entitled to devalue the third-party applications and services that actually make Windows comfortable to use, which given your history of personal attacks and deflective answers, did not feel out of character for you.

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There is no misattribution of merit. There is one users highly opinionated point of view on fellow users here. As I stated above, had you critically reviewed responses up to the point of your initial post, you would have picked up on the fact that the majority praise Microsoft for 1st party productivity and entertainment solutions, as well as 3rd party accessibility solutions. I do see how you would perceive the 3rd party accessibility as being a misattribution of merit, but that would only be true in the sense of accessibility, not the entirety of the Windows Platform.

Stop assuming. Nobody was comparing macOS and Windows. At least, not until you made your initial post. This is not a PC vs Mac debate. Never was. Stop trying to make it one.

OK, so let me quote the original post to this thread, because at this point you're just denying reality:

I've shared my story here before, but the gist of it is that I lost my eyesight in 2020 and my Mac was my primary computer at the time. I tried getting along with VoiceOver on the Mac for a year and a half, but I found it buggy and straight up infuriating at times. It was unintuitive a lot of the time. The final straw was when, after an update, Numbers stopped loading my D&D character sheets. I just remember feeling so frustrated and crying.

I knew I needed to learn Windows for the workplace and was curious about audio games. Dad had impulse bought a PC a few years prior, so we put that in my room and I instantly began learning NVDA through YouTube tutorials. It was a breeze - the navigation didn't break like QuickNav and I completed uni work with Word and Excel easily. It came really, really easily to me - I just needed external training to learn the Windows keyboard commands.

I also... don't hate Windows, or Microsoft for that matter. Controversial opinion, I guess, but it just works (cough unlike MacOS VoiceOver cough)

I can use MacOS with VoiceOver on Sequioa fairly comfortably now, but I still wouldn't switch back. I just find Windows with NVDA and JAWS (which I use for work, or if I'm using Google Docs or Sheets), far more efficient and easier to use. And I don't entirely hate MacOS either - I wish I could tolerate it enough to switch back because MacBooks are gorgeous and I miss putting a case on my laptop and covering it with stickers.

SO, to Brian, my question here is, what do you expect to gain from all the gaslighting you've been doing here?

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"Regarding the articles that you linked to, I am well aware of Apple's abuses. However as I mentioned before in this thread, at some point in my life I realized that I am the only one who gets to lose anything tangential by boycotting big tech, so ethics are no longer involved in my choices as a consumer."

If this were true, you never would have stated ...

""praising third-party screen-readers on Windows whose sole reason for existing is the fact that first-party Windows accessibility has historically been pretty bad. The argument I'm trying to make here is that the popularity of Windows, particularly in the context of the blind community, does not result from merit but rather from its dominant market position as a byproduct of of years of monopolistic behavior legacy from back in the 90s, which enabled some third-party companies to make a business out of providing accessibility on the platform and eventually motivated the development of an open-source project driven by a blind developer community.""

Either you think it's not possible to not like Windows, which would say a lot about the bias that you accuse me of having, or you are purposefully trying to manipulate people against me by ignoring my previous mention of why I don't actually use windows, which I will quote below just to prove you wrong:

As for the productivity aspect of using Windows along with all the third-party offerings, that is an argument that I am very sensitive to and sympathize a lot with. My point was merely against praising a platform whose accessibility contributions have actually been minimal. It's not Windows that makes people productive, it's the stuff that is available to install on it. Whenever blind people ask me what platform I recommend using, I have no doubt in recommending Windows for its ubiquity and availability of accessible solutions, and in fact I have historically done that on several occasions even here on AppleVis, however when I think of switching to Windows myself, all the things that I hate about the platform like bloatware, interface inconsistencies, lack of attention to detail, poor track record on privacy rights, and lack of an alternative ecosystem to Apple's, make it simply not an appealing option for me.

Honestly I have no idea how it was even possible for you to think that there's absolutely no chance for someone to not like Windows for reasons unrelated to Microsoft's ethics.

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Finally, I will reitterate that no, one, is, attacking you. You started this debate, did you honestly expect no one to respond?

I did expect people to respond, but was not expecting people to show the kind of dishonesty that you've been showing here. With every comment you make I become increasingly convinced that you are trying really hard to subvert the debate by manipulating people's opinions against me, because my opinion puts your biases in check and you can't argue against it. You were probably expecting an echo chamber where everyone would be agree on a fictional reality, and in some way my attempt to bring reason to the debate makes you feel uncomfortable.

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Whose the irrationally, illogical one now ... ? 🤨

On the face of all the evidence that I brought up here, I will let people judge that by themselves.

it's interesting how these sorts of discussions bring out the ... shall we say ... more forceful side of people. The title of the thread is "why do you stickt/use Windows?" I personally don't think anyone is better per se. Out of curiosity, for the experts here, what are the difficulties involved in making a third-party screen reader for Mac? I've heard a persistent, though slightly unbelievable, story that Jaws was developing a version for MacOs. If true, whatever happened? I can understand why there's no NVDA for Mac, but what caused Freedom Scientific to back out?