The State of Screen readers in macOS

I find that using Tab, Shift-Tab and other browser navigation commands rather than VoiceOver commands makes amazon.com much easier to work with in Safari. Some Web applications are similar in this regard.

I'm largely satisfied with the Web browsing experience on macOS with Voiceover and Safari (no desire to use Windows instead). However, as discussed earlier in this thread, Apple hasn't addressed the underlying issues responsible for applications' becoming unresponsive, including Web browsers. The incidence of "Safari not responding" messages has greatly reduced in recent macOS releases, but the underlying phenomenon (possibly threads waiting for API calls to return that never do) still exists.

If an application becomes unresponsive, it's still possible to switch to other applications and to use them with VoiceOver. This suggests VO is using multiple threads to interact with different running applications - again, not solving the problem, but mitigating the effects.

I use Firefox, so YMMV. I find that if you search for a product and want to get to the results and have heading nav and such mostly work, it helps to scroll past all the junk at the top. So what I usually do is hit 'h' a couple of times in single key quick nav, get to maybe "hide keyboard shortcuts" or such, and then just hold VO-right until you get past search at least.

When downloading something in Safari, after clicking the download link, and allowing the download if this is your first time downloading from that website, you can reveal the Downloads window by choosing View > Show downloads (or pressing Command-Option-L). In this window, interact with the table, and then interact with the item being downloaded. Here, you should find a progress indicator and status text for the item.

By default, VoiceOver might not automatically speak when the focused item, like the status text or progress indicator, is updated, but this can be changed in VoiceOver Utility > Verbosity > Announcements. In addition, settings for what to do when status text changes can be changed from anywhere in macOS by pressing VO-V, and choosing an option from the "When status changes" menu.

HTH

I did actually experience the infamous SNR bug while developing Vosh on macOS 14, and it was definitely not a consumer-side accessibility thing, so it does not have anything to do with VoiceOver using or not multiple threads to do accessibility, which it likely doesn't, because as I mentioned earlier, the consumer-side of the accessibility infrastructure is not thread-safe.

What I experienced back then was that some accessibility connections, if we can call them that, would randomly either not get replies from WebKit or would fail immediately as if they had timed out but without actually letting the configured time elapse. This was also accompanied by browser instability, so if all the accessibility elements for the browser were locally destroyed and recreated again, the browser would resume working but eventually would grind to a halt. At one point I even experienced SNR on Vosh while VoiceOver was working normally at exactly the same time.

While Apple definitely attempted to tackle the problem on macOS 15, I suspect that their attempt was yet another workaround, because what I observe now is that after browsing some websites, VoiceOver's responsiveness sometimes begins slowing down to a point that the time it takes between issuing a command and getting feedback exceeds 3 seconds, until eventually SNR briefly appears and then the system does something to reset the accessibility infrastructure or whatever, and the feedback delay goes back to normal.

That's a very helpful explanation - thank you. Perhaps using accessibility API debugging tools, if they're publicly available from Apple, would assist in bug reporting. Can the community arrange for someone who knows how to track down problematic API interactions to reproduce bugs and report the technical details? This would (I hope) bypass the first step Apple would need to carry out in attempting to reproduce bugs and to identify the cause. I know this community shouldn't have to do what I'm suggesting. Writing good bug reports should be enough, but there's also potential value in demonstrating the underlying technical causes - at least in some cases.

Of course, if Apple doesn't make a monitoring tool available that can show API access, then this won't be possible - potentially illegal as well.

because what I observe now is that after browsing some websites, VoiceOver's responsiveness sometimes begins slowing down to a point that the time it takes between issuing a command and getting feedback exceeds 3 seconds, until eventually SNR briefly appears and then the system does something to reset the accessibility infrastructure or whatever, and the feedback delay goes back to normal.
I have noticed this as well. I tend to reboot VO. Not sure if we are talking about the same bug but this sluggishness is then propagated to every navigation step, from textedit to chrome. Very small, but it is there if you know what to look for.
You mentioned webkit, but from my experience on ventura and sonoma it was also very present on chrome, just very slightly less worst?

So coming back to my question, Has it gone so bad that I should contemplate stepping back from Mac OS? I am asking this because so far accept few irritants and fundamental changes in the way navigation works in Mac overall, I am finding this a very smooth experience and in some cases even better.
By the way, on the subject of who could be the culprits, One example that would prove some aspect of Jason's post is Visual Studio Code. IN this case, it was vSCode at fold with breaking their accessibility on Mac. I downgraded it just one version and now everything is superb.
I just can't set VSCode to single colum vew, but that's not for my use case, but because I do work with my sighted team and presenting becomes an issue.
And this is not an accessibility issue any ways.

I have met quite a few blind Mac users off late and they did not have serious complaints. Indeed every screen reader has some issue or the other. There are ups and downs all the time. But after reading this thread, I am really wondering if I am going the right way. Yes Mac in general has solid OS, great features and premium build quality with superior performance. But for all of us it comes down to accessibility. So what is the real situation?

This is a site that you can buy products from, but it will be effectively dealing with companies like Amazon or one of the many others on your behalf. The prices tend to be the same (or more or less) as if you bought them directly. But it's all very accessible and designed with us in mind. They even have some specialist blind shops on there, such as Computer Room Services here in the UK. (Although the last time I looked it didn't support VAT exemption on blindness products although they seemed interested in adding this.)

I tend to use them instead of Amazon as it's just a lot less painful to navigate.

Here's what I do: I have two laptop-style machines. One is an Apple Silicon Mac. I use it a lot. The other is an older, x86 machine that dual-boots Linux and Windows - I use Linux more than Windows on it, and this machine also sees heavy use.

Screen readers and accessibility interfaces on all of these operating systems have bugs. I can work around bugs in one by using a different operating system/screen reader combination.

I shouldn't have to do this. On the other hand, I do need two machines, so they might as well have different operating systems installed. I can't afford to be without a working computer (a phone wouldn't be adequate) for the amount of time it would take to have the hardware repaired, so I've kept up the habit of having two working machines.

If you don't mind used hardware, one of your machines could be a refurbished x86 system if you prefer.

@TheBlindGuy07:

From my experience, while I can definitely feel the delay in every application after it's initially triggered, the initial trigger still seems to be WebKit itself. I'm quite sensitive to this kind of delay, which was the primary reason why I bought the AirPods Max to use as a USB audio device recently, as even the short wireless audio delay common to all AirPods bothers me.

@kk_macker:

The situation is that Apple in general prides themselves on the superior user experience and ecosystem integration of their products, which is still true for the most part but the quality has been degrading across the board while the competitors are stepping up their game, so the margin keeps getting smaller. On the accessibility front, and particularly on macOS, the experience is actually subpar compared to the third-party Windows offerings, and by the looks of it is unlikely to not improve any time soon. Modern Macs still have an edge for providing an accessible firmware, which is something that I value a lot as a power user, but from the perspective of a regular blind user I cannot recommend macOS in good faith. It's perfectly usable, and I'm proof of that, but is no match for what I recall experiencing with NVDA on Windows.

For example regular users are likely to need word processors, spreadsheets, and design and presentation tools, whereas as a power user I rely on scripted LaTeX variants and actual databases to perform the same tasks. I have even designed an icon for a game I made using CoreGraphics to output vector instructions to a square PDF, as well as 3D graphics to demonstrate a video-game world environment concept that I rendered to a video for a sighted audience. This means that the highly technical way in which I tackle visual problems as a totally blind user makes me less dependent on the accessibility of specific platforms, which is not the case for regular users, and hence my inability to suggest macOS to most people in good faith.

I also use UNIX tools extensively, including LaTeX, Pandoc, Git, general shell utilities, and so forth. My only need for word processors, spreadsheets and presentation tools is for reading other peoples' work and occasionally for other collaboration-related reasons. Mostly, though, the text-based tools meet the need very well, whether on macOS or Linux.

As I said earlier, I think it would be valuable for one of the accessibility advocacy organizations to take up macOS accessibility issues with Apple, as they have contacts and the ability to represent entire communities which individual users can't match. Meanwhile, keep up the bug reporting.

IMO, don't let other people alter your trust in your own experiences. If Mac is doing fine for you, except for a few issues, why are you letting other people convince you otherwise?

I'm not saying there aren't issues, when I switched at the end of last year, round October I think, Books was broken on the Mac. Now it's fixed for the most part and I'm using it to read books pretty regularly. I say for the most part because it sometimes stops at chapters or headings in certain books. While it's a little annoying, that's just what it does, so I deal with it.

Maybe for somebody else, that's terrible,and they stick with Windows, or at least do all their reading on Windows on a virtual machine or something. So I mean, I'm not suggesting you ignore all of the posts here talking about potential issues. I'm just saying, if it's working for you, it's working for you, you know? And it will until it doesn't, assuming that ever happens. Everybody's different.

Some people here talk about "cognitive load", they feel that the Mac is too hard, they want to do things one way but they have to do something else, and they have to remember that because it's not the way they think it should work. For me, I don't have that, I think because I just switched with the idea that everything was going to be different, because it's not Windows.

So as an example, I'm not bothered that quick nav works in these three different places, so I can just use the arrows like in Windows, but it doesn't work in these other five places, and now I have to remember which one is which! I pretty much use caps lock and the arrows the vast majority of the time, even on the web I only have single key quick nav on.

Now maybe this would drive somebody else nuts. Or maybe they have mobility issues and need quick nav to work everywhere, although I assume Mac has the equivalent of Windows sticky keys. So sure, Mac isn't for everybody. Nothing much is, except for food and water and air I guess. Everybody gotta breathe!

I'd say if there are specific issues you're worried about from these posts, see if you can figure out how to test them. Can you make them happen? Is there a specific task, say coding, that might cause problems? Try coding, see what happens. Are you writing? Try using Pages or some other app, see how it goes. But IMO doubting your own experience just because of some people posting on a forum is kind of ridiculous.

I still have Ventura. Seems from what I've gathered since Ventura, matters just keep getting worse. Thing is, though, I liked better what i had before Ventura. I'd gladly give up all the bells and whistles if only I could downgrade backwards.

I will say again that but for Sequoia aI would have already sold mine.
@Khomus
Good point.
@Jason White, João Santos
I am mostly the same. I use pandoc much more than I ever did on windows. My take honestly, and feel free to disagree, is that if you are not a real blind geek, 10% dev spirit and willing to report bugs, mac will be a very very hard sell for you.

But again, in terms of DAW accessibility is a real thing on mac and we even have real choices between reaper, logic, garageband if it's still technically a beginner daw, protools from what I've heard and others, while on windows outside reaper I literally don't know anything that is sufficient as an actual DAW.
I was and still very am a heavy web user and that's among the reasons why mac was so hard for me to get used to. And ventura and Sonoma, I am sorry, did not help at all. It;s not just because of the bad google suite experience with VO, it's more because of what it means broadly, that the web ,for blind users, is still something hard to access and to be scared of, a feeling that is not shared among my circle where we all love web, electron and etc, as well as the cross platform accessibility brought with it. I am in the younger generation, I hardly remember the windows xp era, for me on windows nvda is the gold standard for web and before my mac in 2023 most of my workflow was around the web and the real desktop apps I'd fully use were the microsoft office suite, and even then because it was more oof a convenient experience than the equivalents of google. And of course terminal for everything actually important, aka dev and just having fun (yes terminal is fun!). Added with how Vo is vad with large chunks of text... I was disappointed.
The thing is that even with applevis, you really have to read about 1k+ messages in this thread to really get a sort of pulse of what's going on. Again, now I am a very happy user of mac, I did VM before but now I am lazy so just use my old hp laptop (x86) whenever I really need windows.
I am probably among the rare to prefer the microsoft teams experience on the mac with chrome. On double tap, there was a casual comment by Shawn on may9 about how the wp-admin experience was incredible with wordpress on mac because of the item chooser. I heard that an interface of salesforce is actually perfectly accessible on the mac and unusable elsewhere.
It's a boring thing to say but it really depends on you, although I'd overall if you want the best desktop accessibility experience than mac should probably not be your first choice.

I mean, I know my way around computers, I've done some programming, and I occasionally use terminal and all. But I'm pretty much using Mac the way most normal people would, and it seems fine. Of course there are issues, but on the whole, I'm getting done what I need to get done, and it doesn't seem particularly hard to do.

Your other DAW option is Ableton Live, also on Windows.

Firstly thanks Khomus, Jason and all ov you.
The fact is that I am a power user, a totally blind software engineer since 2002 and used linux almost for 85% of my career.
I too came into mac world asuming many or most things will change and are done in different way.
So I was kind of prepared in mind. I am however really frustrated with Terminal, as i have mentioned in another post. Add to it the fact I need it almost all the time.
I strangely found google sheets and google docs fairly accessible even with Chrome. But when it comes to file manager (aka finder ), it is the place where I get seriously bugged. So other than these two issues I am not finding any serious problems.
I hope some advocacy group takes this up with apple and we have lesser complaints. Example, I never here a notification alert if wifi disconnects. On Ubuntu this is not the case with Orca, and this is sometimes very frustrating. Unless I am doing something wrong here, I can't really understand how Apple accessibility team can't do this simple thing?